(February 23rd, 2013, 00:27)TheHumanHydra Wrote: Thanks for starting the discussion on this, CFCJesterFool (what should we call you for short?).
Jester is fine.
Quote:I'm okay with barbarians on but probably not raging, but if what CFCJesterFool says is true, we should vote off if the difficulty is Deity.
The problem with barbs is that it is too RNG dependent. I'd rather play against our opponents, not the RNG. On Immortal+, imo, barbs don't belong in mp. The randomness of the results can sink an otherwise strong opening and to me at least, that's not a fun experience. At least in sp, you can just start another game. In mp, that is not going to be the case. Also, I think winning the game because another team got screwed by barbs would diminish the satisfaction of winning...and I do plan on winning.
Quote:I would prefer lush land. I'm undecided as to mirroring, but in any case, I'd like it to be balanced.
Imo, lush land is a crutch (and less interesting). The best way to grow as a player is to learn how to play the map (i.e. natural land). A lot of the higher level players won't even bother playing triple wet corn starts...no challenge. My best Deity game ironically was a game where my capital had only one food source and my gp farm only had a few FPs which I had to farm (plus was boxed in to only 5 cities)...won dom 1888 AD. I learned more from that game than any lush start I ever played on the lower levels.
Totally agree on balanced. It won't be fun otherwise. Mirroring just makes the game too dependent on micro (which I am pretty good at). My problem with mirroring is that it makes the game too predictable, i.e. we find copper and know exactly where all the other copper is...boring.
Quote:I'd vote first turn only city gifting. I don't understand all this fuss about trades, but to simplify things I'd say no to GPT trades.
Probably simpler to ban city gifting...entirely. I'd have to agree on no GPT trades.
Quote:I'd like to see a variety of leaders, so maybe yes to snake pick and no to doubled traits, with the Big Four banned. I don't have a strong opinion about all these snake pick permutations.
Snake pick would be my choice as well. It really doesn't matter about doubled traits so fine with whatever. Never really understood the Big Four ban but that probably has something to do with playing on Deity against the Big Four (sometimes even in the same game...I play random leaders for the added fun factor). Don't really care either way (ban or no ban), just pointing out that those leaders don't automatically equate to an "I win" button. Our starting land (and how we play the map) will have more of an impact on how successful we are.
Quote:Reloads - I'd say yes for a bad misclick, no for anything else. I don't think time limit will matter. As for random seed ... whatever?
Phew, that's a lot of rules to debate!
I'd say no reloads period. Better to live with mistakes and really I don't see us "misclicking". I've played a fair number of competitive games (SGOTM/BOTM over at CFC forums) so my play is tailored towards "live with the results". Again, while having fun is the main goal, improving your play, imo, is also highly desirable...and that doesn't happen when you can reload to cover up a mistake.
We'll probably need a timer to keep the game moving while still giving teams that want to sim and discuss possible moves enough time. I am fine with whatever though but fyi, I do like to sim and early on it really does make a difference in deciding optimal moves/micro.
Random seed - in sp this is "I want to cheat" option so never use it. If reloads are allowed then it would effectively be the same in mp. I would vote NO.
Yep, lots of rules.
Global lurker ; played in Civ VI PBEM 4, 5, 15; DL suboptimal Civ VI PBEM 17
(February 23rd, 2013, 01:34)Nakor Wrote: TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)? None
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***? Nope, agree with 7
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****? No, agree with 7
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)? No, agree with 7
LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)? Yes
See starts before pick (yes/no)? No, makes it more fun!
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)? Sure, if they want it
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)? Okay
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)? First option.
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)?Don't care
PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes? NO!
Time limit? 24 hours
New random seed on reload, right? ??
Just my thoughts!
BTW, both Serdoa and me are Vet's, Jester as well.
For the rest of the stuff...I agree with Nakor.
Global lurker ; played in Civ VI PBEM 4, 5, 15; DL suboptimal Civ VI PBEM 17
Ok, before I start with settings discussion (and guys, use the template please, it is nigh impossible to put together what everyone voted up to now), I'd like to point out that this is not a SP-game. Put away the mentality of SP-games. TMIT is an very good SP-player and still could not keep up in PBEM25, simply because this is not SP. Not meant to take anything away from those being really good at it, but it won't help for the most part, I'm sorry. This game makes it even worse than for example PB8, because with it being also a teamer, that is another point making it remarkably different to a SP-game.
A few notes:
Circumnavigation: If you don't want to invest heavily to get it (and you don't), vote not to have it in the first place. On a lakes map there could potentially be some waterways that make our cities vulnerable and defending against 3-move-galleys is akward.
Wrap: If we want to take late-game traits then Toroid is probably best, to keep warring to a minimum in the early game. Otherwise Cylindrical is fine. Keep in mind that this also makes a big difference in from how many angles we can actually be attacked.
Mirrored / Balanced: I think you'll not get a really balanced map for 8 teams if it isn't mirrored. But plako is really good with it, so whatever one prefers. I personally would rather have a mirrored map.
GENERAL SETTINGS
Always War (Yes/No)? Yes
Handicap level (Deity/Immortal/Other)? Immortal
Game Speed (Quick/Normal)? Quick (I just know the timings better and this game will be slooooow - assume 1turn/2 days (and thats probably quick) and you still look at T60 after 4 months..
Banned Wonders (Specify if any)? TGLighthouse
Banned Other (1st post suggested War Elephants, Spy missions, and Nukes only)? WE, switch civic/religion (rest is fine and opens up other possibilities), nukes
Barbarians (Off/On/Raging)? Off
MAP INSTRUCTIONS
Approx. Map Type (Lakes/Other)? Lakes if not mirrored, otherwise Sevens script if useable
Circumnavigation available* (Yes/No)? No
Map wrap (None/Cylinder/Toroid/Up to Plako)? Cylindrical
Natural vs Only good land? Natural if mirrored, only good if balanced
Mirrored (Completely/With minor differences/Capitals only/No)? with minor differences
If not mirrored, Fair vs Random**? Fair (!)
TEAM GAME ABUSE PREVENTION CENTER
City gifting (None/First turn only/Other)?First turn only
Can accept trades when one partner has ended turn and the other one hasn't (no/not if includes resources or gpt/not if includes gpt/yes)***? No
Can trade GPT (gold per turn) (yes/no)****? Yes
Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)? Not if avoidable, not if gifting gpt
LEADER/CIV ASSIGNMENT
Some sort of snake pick i.e. no leader/civ can exist more than once in the game (yes/no)? Yes, no duplicates
See starts before pick (yes/no)? Yes - this is just making the picks more sensible
Allow a team to have 2 copies of a trait (yes/no)? Yes
Tie snake pick order to reverse turn order (yes/no)? Yes
Snake pick order (4321123443211234, 4321123443214321, 4321432143214321, other)? First option
Bans (any or all of: India, Inca, Pacal, Willem, other)? All banned
PITBOSS STUFF
Allow reload requests for bad mistakes? No
Time limit?Yes please, but I am not sure what would work best
New random seed on reload, right? No
Btw: It might make sense to start separate threads for leader-discussion, reporting of turns, C&D (if we do any, I won't), etc. Otherwise this thread will become unreadable soon. But I'll leave those decisions to HAK and THH.
I thought barb units were related to player tech, so archers are unlikely in mp. That said I agree about barbs screwing up your opening.
City gifting - if we have an imp civ (to build settlers and do the fighting) we can gift settlers and have some war units from the other civ to take cities where necessary. So gifting doesn't have to be on if we're organised.
Would we have an exp civ for building workers?
I'm fine with the rest of the settings as folks have said so far, except that not seeing our start could leave one team way behind on worker tech, in the same way barb/huts/events are unfair...
Edit: crosspost - on my phone so can't use template - just assume I'm fine with whatever!
(February 23rd, 2013, 04:01)Serdoa Wrote: but it won't help for the most part
Actually, many of the skills you master in sp do directly translate over to mp, e.g. micro, bulb path knowledge, leveraging traits, etc. Diplo (i.e. you can't abuse the AI, since there are none, to do farmer's gambits with impunity) is really what stands out as a stark contrast in mp vs sp. In this case, AW (which it most likely will be), makes diplo a moot point and thereby makes sound mechanics/game knowledge more of a factor than it otherwise would be.
I have played team vs team before (fun variant) although only in sp. The mechanics are still the same though but you are absolutely right about it changing the game quite a bit. For example, teams start with the starting techs of both civs on a team so it wouldn't really make sense to choose two civs with Mining/Mysticism as their starting techs. Another example would be GPeople generation since the gpp required for each gp is team based instead of civ based so if civ A gets the first gp (100 gpp required assuming normal speed) and civ B on the team wants the next gp, civ B's gpp cost will be 200 gpp (also assuming normal speed). Very good thing to know if both capitols want an early Academy.
One thing I would like to add is that it is important that we go into the game KNOWING we are going to win. The mental aspect of the game imo, is just as important as the micro/game plan etc. (although without a good game plan chances won't be ideal).
Global lurker ; played in Civ VI PBEM 4, 5, 15; DL suboptimal Civ VI PBEM 17
(February 23rd, 2013, 04:10)Old Harry Wrote: I thought barb units were related to player tech, so archers are unlikely in mp.
Depends on the mapmaker to some degree. Difficulty determines how fast the barbs tech plus their starting techs (and when animals disappear). However, when you make the map (worldbuilder save) you have to add the starting techs to the barbs so the mapmaker might not do that (meaning just barb warriors on T6 using Deity as an example). What won't change is when non-animal barbs start spawning (type determined by their starting techs) and on Immortal+, animals disappear too quickly to not cause problems for players trying to settle cities. Another fun fact is that non-animal barbs can always enter cultural borders if a player's unit (e.g. worker) is adjacent to a barb just outside the cultural borders, which would make improving 2nd ring food resources a risky proposition if say for example the difficulty was Deity.
Global lurker ; played in Civ VI PBEM 4, 5, 15; DL suboptimal Civ VI PBEM 17
I believe the GPP threshold for teammates actuall only increases by 50% when a great person is born
Merovech's Mapmaking Guidelines:
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
(February 23rd, 2013, 10:39)Merovech Wrote: I believe the GPP threshold for teammates actuall only increases by 50% when a great person is born
I never checked tbh..stupid AIs always ended up getting all the GP (and they always love getting Prophets and Artists for some reason, might have been my choice of AI partners though). Easy enough to test.
Edit: Actually it is slightly more complicated (just tested). Alternating between civs, 1st GP is 100, 1st by other team member is 150. The 2nd is 250 (350 for 3rd if alternating stops i.e. delay 2nd GP from other team member), 300 for 2nd by other team member. Both civs show 400 for the third GP if the first 4 GPs alternate between each civ in the team. Stopped testing after the first 4 GP but it is clear that it is optimal to alternate the first four GP given equal food availability (100,150,250,300 being slightly better than 100,150,250,350).
Global lurker ; played in Civ VI PBEM 4, 5, 15; DL suboptimal Civ VI PBEM 17
(February 23rd, 2013, 04:01)Serdoa Wrote: Can strike (yes/only if not currently gifting gpt to partner/not if it's avoidable with partner's help)? Not if avoidable, not if gifting gpt
Can someone please explain this more clearing and specifically? That link thingy that 7 posted in response to my question in the main thread didn't help at all. I'm still totally confused by what you guys are referring to by "Can strike". I'm assuming it's something we don't want, so I'm sure that's what my vote is...but I'd still like to know what it is such that it needs to come up to a vote.
