EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

[Kragroth]

I'm tempted to say let them wane into Great Prophets.

Not doing this because settled GP don't really have a purpose. They're a weird mix of gold and hammers, and I'm only giving them this because of the popularity of Sidarian Altar.

Great Prophets Serve a lot of Purpose. +2 Hammers +5 Gold is very nice. I prefer Settled GP to settled Great Merchants Personally. Moreover, the Altar Improves the Hammers of Priests and Great Prophets. So yeah there is a big incentive to wane into a Great Prophet if possible.

18. What's wrong with 150% ? Why is this necessary?

It basically never triggers.

I think that's basically the Point. Barbarian is the only trait in the game that can be forcibly taken away from you and it's super easy to get 110% on an enemy. I think it'd be better just to leave it as it is and not cheapen the trait which already permanently penalizes you.

19. How about +1 Food per Cottage. Consider letting them build cottages early. This conflicts with Kuriorates schtick somewhat (Maybe they should get +1 food for cottages too in addition to their Enclave). Make the growth of their cottages naturally faster like with the civic or technology.

All of these are waaaaay too powerful. They don't really need much of a buff, just a bit of incentive towards cottages/something to spice them up.

Right now there's no incentive to be the Bannor. The schticks of the other civs outclass these generic do-gooders.

20. Why 8? Why not 9 or 12 or 5 or 1?

Thanks.

Okay, so the idea I've had surrounding civic swap length is to limit it on quick such that you can achieve two civic swaps within a GA (which is always the case in base BTS) and is something I think is beneficial to return to.
This can, of course, be viewed two ways - firstly, it boosts SPI, because 8t between swapping civics/religions is slightly better than 10t. At the same time, of course, it better enables non-SPIs to mimic it's effects, so imo it's a comparative nerf of them, if slight.

That didn't really answer my question. Yes 8 turns is less than 10. But again, what's the argument for 8? If Kael had set this at 8 turns, would you now be suggesting 6? We need some reasoning behind why a certain number yes?

[Bobchillingworth]

12: 'K

13: Sure.

14: This might be too cheap, but I suppose we should see.

15: Good change. (@Kragroth- I think the antisynergy Qg refers to is that the easiest way to unlock public baths is bulbing Sanitation w/ the free Drama artist, and Creative civs don't really need drama early). Btw is Averax still Creative? Having cheap public baths would be a nice boost to him, means easier for him to get buildable Succubi online.

16: Cool.

17:

18: I'm with Kragroth on this one, not sure what the point is.

19: I much prefer Ichabod's suggestion.

20: Not sure about this. Bear in mind that Spi is already getting a buff with your suggested Pacifism change.

[HidingKneel]

Proposals:
1. Guild loses +1h to workshops. +1h added to workshops by default.

2. Guarded lairs take 3 turns just like regular ones.

3. Windmills buildable at Mathematics (not engineering)

4. Aristocracy moves from -40% maintenance to -10%

5. Galleys lose 1 move (to 2 moves base, 3 with longshoreman)

6. Naval promotions are switched up. Longshoreman now loses 1 combat, Buccaneers now loses 1 cargo, and Skeleton Crew loses nothing.

7. Eurabates, Drifa, and Abashi gain the Hero promotion.

8. Foreign Trade loses +1 trade route everywhere; gains +50% trade-route yield.
- Should this be +25%?

I like 1,3,4,7, and 8. Neutral on 2,5, and 6.

9. The Great Library gives +2b per specialist (from +1b)

Don't like this. TGL is already plenty strong given how cheap it is.

10. The Dragon's Hoard gives +2 cpt, +100% cpt, +10gpt, Gems, Enchantment Mana, and Gold. (Instead of all other affects)

Seems sort of lackluster for a late-game reward.

11. Pacifism gains infinite sage, infinite merchant slots.

Don't like it.

12. Caste System gains low upkeep, +1g per specialist, loses +1b per specialist.

13. Wane requires level 5.

14. Pact of Nilhorn price reduced to 200h base (133h quick)

Sounds good.

15. CRE recieves +100% Public Baths speed. Anti synergetic with Drama push, but eh well.

Seems sort of random.

16. Sidar Palace gives +1g for priest specialists.

17. Warrens give +10% maintenance.

Sure.

18. Barbarian Peace triggers on 110% of rivals score. Delayed for first 5 turns (so you don't lose it when you settle.

Don't like this. Losing barbarian peace doesn't have to be something that happens frequently (why rob the Clan of their flavor?)

19. Bannor get +1h per cottage, (hamlet, village, town)???
- Too much? 1c instead? Or nothing?
- (How can this be implemented? Palace?)

Too much. Ichabod's modification sounds good.

20. Can switch religions/civics every 8t, not 10t

Aren't religion swaps every 5t, not 10t?
Dropping the timer on civic swaps to 8 sounds good.

[Dreylin]

19. Perhaps make the town not decrease to a village when a unit spawns. Or make something of a "enclave" upgrade to Bannor cottages, but the only thing happens is that a unit is born and you get straight back to a town. That'd make the bonus less random.

I like this!

I was thinking to give a doubling to Village (only) growth; then it helps you get to Towns faster, which is a general boost / incentive to Cottages and it recovers from the unit spawn faster.

Okay, so the idea I've had surrounding civic swap length is to limit it on quick such that you can achieve two civic swaps within a GA (which is always the case in base BTS) and is something I think is beneficial to return to.
This can, of course, be viewed two ways - firstly, it boosts SPI, because 8t between swapping civics/religions is slightly better than 10t. At the same time, of course, it better enables non-SPIs to mimic it's effects, so imo it's a comparative nerf of them, if slight.

That didn't really answer my question. Yes 8 turns is less than 10. But again, what's the argument for 8? If Kael had set this at 8 turns, would you now be suggesting 6? We need some reasoning behind why a certain number yes?

The argument for 8t is as Q stated; just short enough to get a second revolt during a Golden Age, but no shorter.

[Qgqqqqq]

Quickly re: The pacifism change:

The rationale is a desire to make specialist economies a legitimate option in the same ballpark of strength as cottages. Is the rejection of this:

A) a rejection against that desire (which is a legitimate worldview, it could be considered beyond the scope of the mod)
B) a feeling that the implementation is wrong, in which case are there any ideas you have for alternatives?

I'm fond of pacifism because it's an odd civic as is, in a weird place and rarely used, it doesn't directly compete against the ones alongside and it shouldn't be overly transformative compared to moving around/switching other civics. The military nerf also keeps it from being too powerful.

[Bobchillingworth]

I think the Pacifism change is a fairly substantial buff to Jonas, albeit unintentionally. It makes over-expansion much less of an issue when you can switch anarchy-free into a civic which allows for infinite merchants as long as your food surplus and happiness hold out, and then jump out relatively soon after if the military penalty becomes an issue.


It's also a smaller buff to Einon and maybe Cassiel, who can exploit starting in Pacifism + Philo to land an ultra-early academy. Not a massive buff since they'll have to seriously slow the vital early growing turns to do so.

[DaveV]

1. Guild loses +1h to workshops. +1h added to workshops by default.

Probably a good change. Needs playtesting.

2. Guarded lairs take 3 turns just like regular ones.

Yes. Guardians have a tendency to wander off sometimes.

3. Windmills buildable at Mathematics (not engineering)

Still pretty late.

4. Aristocracy moves from -40% maintenance to -10%

If Aristocracy is still the right choice most of the time, maybe this would help.

5. Galleys lose 1 move (to 2 moves base, 3 with longshoreman)

The problem is that this increases the relative strength of circumnav bonus and Lanun movement bonus. Off topic, but I would love to see a change to the circumnav bonus, like in RtR mod?

6. Naval promotions are switched up. Longshoreman now loses 1 combat, Buccaneers now loses 1 cargo, and Skeleton Crew loses nothing.

Neutral on Longshoreman: I liked the -1 cargo for +1 move, but -1 combat works too, I guess (again, +1 move is relatively stronger if you reduce movement). I like the Buccaneers change; it was pretty useless with -1 move.

Do you mean Skeleton Crew remains unchanged, or that you can get +1 cargo for no penalty? If the latter, the Normal Crew option seems pretty pointless.

7. Eurabates, Drifa, and Abashi gain the Hero promotion.

As other people said, why not?

8. Foreign Trade loses +1 trade route everywhere; gains +50% trade-route yield.
- Should this be +25%?

Probably a good change. Note that a buff to non-Agrarianism civics is effectively a nerf to Aristocracy.

9. The Great Library gives +2b per specialist (from +1b)

Maybe too much? Several people have built GL in past games.

10. The Dragon's Hoard gives +2 cpt, +100% cpt, +10gpt, Gems, Enchantment Mana, and Gold. (Instead of all other affects)

Is this buildable now? Acheron will be just as annoying as ever with culture spam, and I for one don't want him in my games.

11. Pacifism gains infinite sage, infinite merchant slots.

Unlimited is too much, IMO. Specialist slots are hard to get, and food is plentiful.

12. Caste System gains low upkeep, +1g per specialist, loses +1b per specialist.

Meh.

13. Wane requires level 5.

OK.

14. Pact of Nilhorn price reduced to 200h base (133h quick)

So, three giants for about four and a half axemen or eight warriors? Probably a little too cheap, although no one ever seems to build this now.

15. CRE recieves +100% Public Baths speed. Anti synergetic with Drama push, but eh well.

A small buff. OK.

16. Sidar Palace gives +1g for priest specialists.

Sure, why not?

17. Warrens give +10% maintenance.

Not sure this will have much of an impact. Needs playtesting.

18. Barbarian Peace triggers on 110% of rivals score. Delayed for first 5 turns (so you don't lose it when you settle.

Too low, IMO. I agree with earlier posts that barb peace is important flavor.

19. Bannor get +1h per cottage, (hamlet, village, town)???
- Too much? 1c instead? Or nothing?
- (How can this be implemented? Palace?)

Another vote for Ichabod's solution.

20. Can switch religions/civics every 8t, not 10t

Probably a good idea. Makes Golden Ages relatively more powerful.

Miscellaneous extras:

Did the Stasis bug ever get fixed (you have to pay some maintenance costs the first and last turns of Stasis)?
Change circumnavigation bonus (see my response to #5)?

[Mardoc]

Generally agreed on the consensus. I like the idea of making specialists more viable - but agree it shouldn't be from the very start of the game. What if Pacifism got more powerful, but was also moved to later in the tech tree? Say, Mysticism or Philosophy?

I don't like the naval proposal. It's a change, but it doesn't seem to accomplish anything in my mind. If anything, less moves on galleys means you want less navy, not more.

[Kragroth]

Quickly re: The pacifism change:

The rationale is a desire to make specialist economies a legitimate option in the same ballpark of strength as cottages. Is the rejection of this:

A) a rejection against that desire (which is a legitimate worldview, it could be considered beyond the scope of the mod)
B) a feeling that the implementation is wrong, in which case are there any ideas you have for alternatives?

I'm fond of pacifism because it's an odd civic as is, in a weird place and rarely used, it doesn't directly compete against the ones alongside and it shouldn't be overly transformative compared to moving around/switching other civics. The military nerf also keeps it from being too powerful.

For me, it's a and b. If the intention of EITB is not to balance but not make drastic changes, this falls out of sync with that. As stated earlier, to do this properly really requires a massive redo of the mod which seems out of the scope of the mod's stated purpose.

For b. Again, the choice of just sage or merchant feels arbitrary. Priests should be included too because they arrive just as early. Why no bards? Well bards come at the same time as merchants, but we're denying bards because they give culture which conflicts with the benefits of the Cultural Trait.

To me I might be interested in a Pacifism with no drawbacks (pure +50% Great Person Bonus) (perhaps the civic is renamed) available at a later tech (say Philosophy).

Similarly though I find that this method conflicts with Caste system and other civics and the mod design in general

I think the Pacifism change is a fairly substantial buff to Jonas, albeit unintentionally. It makes over-expansion much less of an issue when you can switch anarchy-free into a civic which allows for infinite merchants as long as your food surplus and happiness hold out, and then jump out relatively soon after if the military penalty becomes an issue.


It's also a smaller buff to Einon and maybe Cassiel, who can exploit starting in Pacifism + Philo to land an ultra-early academy. Not a massive buff since they'll have to seriously slow the vital early growing turns to do so.

It's a buff To Einon, Cassiel, and Cardith Lorda and you're right, any spiritual civ, but I think especially Cardith Lorda. This creates a weird situation where we're encouraged to run low military gambits to get ahead in tech and further creates imbalance in my view by encouraging civs to ignore Mysticism and Festivals where other civs would want to get those.

As an aside, I think specialists will always be inferior to cottages and/or aristofarms unless you make drastic changes. We get early access with this, but it doesn't really address the core issue that 3 food 6 commerce tiles are more flexible and just better. I don't see us adding a Baker specialist that flat out gives 3 food 4 hammers for instance.

[Bobchillingworth]

Generally agreed on the consensus. I like the idea of making specialists more viable - but agree it shouldn't be from the very start of the game. What if Pacifism got more powerful, but was also moved to later in the tech tree? Say, Mysticism or Philosophy?

I don't like the naval proposal. It's a change, but it doesn't seem to accomplish anything in my mind. If anything, less moves on galleys means you want less navy, not more.

Pacifism being moved up is a minor nerf to certain leaders though; mostly thinking of Cassiel and Thessalonica, I'm sure there are others.

Agreed on not liking the galley nerf. Neutral on the general ship promotions.

It's a buff To Einon, Cassiel, and Cardith Lorda and you're right, any spiritual civ, but I think especially Cardith Lorda. This creates a weird situation where we're encouraged to run low military gambits to get ahead in tech and further creates imbalance in my view by encouraging civs to ignore Mysticism and Festivals where other civs would want to get those.

Good points. I totally forgot about Cardith, it's a very significant boost for him.

Switch me over to the "opposing" camp for the change.