[SPOILERS] PB20 Lurker Thread of Perfect Hindsight

[ipecac]

Oh you misread my Rybka statement. People didn't care about the ICGA AFTER they stopped Rybka and the others from playing. The engines that cheated were 500+ rating points stronger and that made the ICGA competition not matter anymore.

...
That's because there are two divergent views on the significance of ICGA's WCC.

For the organisers and the small group of people who care, the WCC for chess engines is to demonstrate who is the best chess programmer (or team of programmers). Naturally, they would attempt to put stringent requirements on copying and derivation of ideas.

However, most (chess) people only care about ICGA's World Championships as proof of what is the best chess engine currently; they don't care about whether cheating in terms of copying occurs. They just want to know what is the best, and the best in often (and unsurprisingly) those who derive a lot. Most people simply do not care who the programmers are and what they've done.

TL;DR:
The general chess public only cares which engine is strongest, and practically that means the engine created by the best cheater. The comparison to RB fails because the philosophy here is founded on not cheating. The community here, if they care at all, only cares about who is the best who don't cheat. If you care about who's the best including cheaters, this probably isn't the place for you.

[MJW (ya that one)]

By far the biggest reason why people dislike LP is because he systematically uses the clock to his advantage. That's not cheating. So banning him, by refusing to allow him to play, is doing it because "we don't like him!" and nothing really solid. This is kind of like CFC were you can get banned for being slightly condescending. That's bad and causes some good players to refuse to play and damages their reputation.

A big problem, for that view, is that it is extremely alarmist and we are not even close to that point yet... You don't need to show that LP is cheating or RB is about not cheating or anything like that. Again, we kicked someone out for giving a settler to Plako and no-one cared.

Edit: Added omitted words.

[Bobchillingworth]

All of this talk about "banning" is nonsensical. To be banned from RB, as in formally "can't-post-no-more" banned, you would either have to:

A: Be a spambot.

B: Post something monstrously inappropriate and not have a very good excuse.

C: Repeatedly and unapologetically cheat in ways which invalidate entire games.


Being shunned or rejected from individual games is not the same thing as a community ban- not that the former is particularly common either.

[NobleHelium]

By far the biggest reason why people dislike LP is because he systematically uses the clock to his advantage. That's not cheating. So banning him, by refusing to allow him to play, is doing it because "we don't like him!" and nothing really solid. This is kind of like CFC were you can get banned for being slightly condescending. That's bad and causes some good players to refuse to play and damages their reputation.

A big problem, for that view, is that it is extremely alarmist and we are not even close to that point yet... You don't need to show that LP is cheating or RB is about not cheating or anything like that. Again, we kicked someone out for giving a settler to Plako and no-one cared.

Edit: Added omitted words.

Yes, it is cheating. It is explicitly against this game's rules. Read the rules. And renaming your unit is also cheating, and also explicitly against the rules.

And we didn't actually kick WarlordDr out, he quit.

[spacetyrantxenu]

I don't think anyone is considering banning LP's forum account, that would be ludicrously stupid and pointless. There is absolutely no grounds for it at all. So any conversation about it is utterly ridiculous speculation.

Anyone who plays games here is free to choose whom he or she will or will not play games with. That isn't blackballing, that's personal preference. If a lot of people individually come to the same conclusion about playing (or not) with a particular player that also isn't blackballing. That's many people coming to the same conclusion individually, and that's totally fair. If people don't want to play with me because I'm liable to melt down and fly off the handle that is their right. If they don't want to play against any of Mack/Seven/Krill/Whoever because losing is getting old, that's totally fair. And if someone doesn't want to play against someone for any other reason, rational or otherwise, that's totally fair. If your reputation makes it hard to get into future games you really should stop and think about what it was in the past that got you into that situation. Chances are it isn't because you're being blackballed like this is some Las Vegas casino and the house is tired of you taking its money. It's probably because you've done something (and probably more than a few times since people are forgiving for the most part) that people don't like and don't want to deal with anymore when they're playing their recreational fun time games. Just maybe.

I'm speaking in generalities, this post could apply to anyone meeting the above criteria.

Preview edit: Cross posted noble, but yeah. If you do things that the rules explicitly forbid, I don't know what else to call it.

[Boldly Going Nowhere]

HAND WAVING AND VERY LOUD NOISES!!!!

[NobleHelium]

I have a tendency to gesticulate with my hands when talking passionately and that bothers some people sometimes.

[plako]

Again, we kicked someone out for giving a settler to Plako and no-one cared.

I can't remember this incident. Could you refresh my memory and point out when did this happen.

[MJW (ya that one)]

1. I, of course, don't mean ban LP. I mean de facto banning him by not allowing him to play.

2. "Warlord" was in a death spiral by the time he was kicked out but the last straw was not him cheating but him losing a settler. (It was actually Warlord and his "friends" got kicked out) Plako that game was with sullla in case of mistaken identity. You may not remember because that turn was replayed with a different player. So you never actually saw him lose a settler if you didn't play after him. See post #306 in the lurker thread.

3. I'm not sure in this game that LP is cheating. But if in that game with sullla if ether clock/war DoW manipulation was against the rules he did indeed cheat there. (Edit: I looked at rule #7 which rego and LP broke. They broke rule #6 but not technically because the war between plako and rego was not phony. However, it is close enough that if you consider rule #7 "technically" is not a good enough excuse. I think people didn't press this because LP, with help from rego and that other dude, would have won anyway.)

[NobleHelium]

* No talking. (You can't communicate with other players about the game. No using text in-game to send messages. You can still do in-game diplo.)
* Anyone who does annoying things with the turn timer will be taken outside and shot, then made to wear a dunce cap, then brought back inside and shot again.

If you'd rather shoot Parkin twice and put a dunce cap on him rather than admit that he cheated, then please do the honors. Oh and unit names are part of in-game text.