We just watch. And Judge. FFH PBEM III Lurker Thread.

[Man Behind the Mask]

I think the key thing being overlooked by the players is this:

21:59 Heisenberg: coz my friend played a couple turns for me when I was flying over for work
and he didnt mention anything surprising
Nyk: hmm, do you still have the saves?
Heisenberg: ah, so WK said he lost a caravel next to me?
Nyk: yup
Heisenberg: well i have most of them
except the ones which i didnt play of course
22:00 Nyk: interesting would be the last turn where you saw that caravel, and the turn after that
Heisenberg: so i only see the caravel near me, then when i came back it's gone
i could try asking my friend

Presumably the place that will really reveal the answer is the Sheaim game log?

[NobleHelium]

Well, that's definitely compelling. I wonder if Heisenberg's friend is Koenigsegg? Heh.

[Brian Shanahan]

If I'm reading the thread right, WK is planning on attacking Thoth on turn 175, despite signing a NAP recently until turn 195, jsutifying it based on the IMO flimsy excuse that he believes it broken by Thoth saying he cannot be attacked to turn 210.

I just don't think he has enough justification for this (not even close).

[Selrahc]

If I'm reading the thread right, WK is planning on attacking Thoth on turn 175, despite signing a NAP recently until turn 195, jsutifying it based on the IMO flimsy excuse that he believes it broken by Thoth saying he cannot be attacked to turn 210.

I just don't think he has enough justification for this (not even close).

Here is the case for the defence:
The agreement was signed with a confidentiality clause, which was immediately violated.

Thoth's breaking of the confidentiality clause was not explicit, he never mentioned the Elohim or the exact date, but it did have ramifications for the Elohim. Given that the negotiations and terms were supposed to be Top Secret, this can definitely be considered a flouting of the clause.


When Thoth told the other players about it, the Elohim suddenly found themselves at the centre of a storm of diplomacy when they wanted to launch the Sheaim campaign as a surprise. The Sheaim became aware of the attack, and have had a chance to build up a defence.

Their plans were upset massively by something they had specifically asked Thoth not to do.

Don't flout the confidentiality clause of a treaty unless you are prepared to see the treaty crumble.


As an aside, personally I can accept the arguments that the NAP is rendered null and void by the breaking of the confidentiality clause. What I find a lot more underhanded is not telling Thoth that they consider the NAP nullified. The honourable thing to do is to tell somebody if you think they have violated the treaty.

[Brian Shanahan]

Here is the case for the defence:
The agreement was signed with a confidentiality clause, which was immediately violated.

Thoth's breaking of the confidentiality clause was not explicit, he never mentioned the Elohim or the exact date, but it did have ramifications for the Elohim. Given that the negotiations and terms were supposed to be Top Secret, this can definitely be considered a flouting of the clause.


When Thoth told the other players about it, the Elohim suddenly found themselves at the centre of a storm of diplomacy when they wanted to launch the Sheaim campaign as a surprise. The Sheaim became aware of the attack, and have had a chance to build up a defence.

Their plans were upset massively by something they had specifically asked Thoth not to do.

Don't flout the confidentiality clause of a treaty unless you are prepared to see the treaty crumble.


As an aside, personally I can accept the arguments that the NAP is rendered null and void by the breaking of the confidentiality clause. What I find a lot more underhanded is not telling Thoth that they consider the NAP nullified. The honourable thing to do is to tell somebody if you think they have violated the treaty.

Honestly I don't think it is justification, yes Thoth hinted he had a NAP with someone, but he left it so vague that everybody could have equally deduced that one of the others signed it. Also it could equally have been him fishing for information (actually I think this more likely the more I think about it) about others' plans, in fact I don't think from the wording of it:

Hey all, just a quick question. I was talking with Thoth the other
day about NAPs, and he mentioned this: "My current agreements preclude
me from owning the world before turn 210". I take it that means the
coalition is off? Should I go ahead and sign an NAP myself with him,
then? What's going on?

- Mardoc

that you could properly argue that he was even implying that he had a NAP with anyone. I'd personally read it "OK at about turn 210 I can win this, can you beat me?," quite possibly with a lot of misdirection, but nothing more than a player trying to figure out what kind of a path his nearest rival was taking through some information dropping of his own.

And from re-reading 2 1/2 pages of Mardoc's thread I'm not convinced that he even had a chat with Thoth in the first place, because he does not mention the chat quoted above in his message to WK. Personally something like that would be too big to leave out in the lurker thread because a) it is major information about another player's plans (even if false) and b) it is something that needs a lot of thinking about before deciding what to do with (for me something that would need a bit of help too).

And the final reason why I don't think it is breaking NAP, Thoth was the one who wanted the confidentiality clause in the first place (probably to try and keep Nyktorion from realising he was next). You do not break a clause that you yourself insert into an agreement without a lot of cause on your side (or you're Hitler, but that's another story).

Fine if the chat exists WK could have got onto Thoth privately with a "strongly worded letter", but it is not casus belli as far as I can see.

[NobleHelium]

Hi Thoth

It's been a while, how have you been doing?

It seems that our NAP is close to expiring again. I would be interested in extending it to T195, but given the current situation I can't agree to sign it without also agreeing that this NAP remains confidential (between the two of us only). Would you ok with that? If not I'm willing to discuss other ways we can make it work out for both of us.

BTW is there a reason why your at war with the Infernal's? I don't think it's because they spawned closest to you (I already claimed that title).

Regards,
WarriorKnight

Minor correction, it was definitely WK who asked for the confidentiality.

[Rowain]

And the secrecy is a condition for signing the NAP in the first place. So seeing as Thoth has violated the terms first this NAP is null and void.

[Selrahc]

I would be less willing to sign a NAP with WK or Mist as a result of this though. The willingness to get out of NAPs on violation, while leaving it a secret, means that it is hard to rely on them. If you accidentally break a treaty with them and don't realize, then they launch an invasion while you think things are safely NAP'd...

[Brian Shanahan]

And the secrecy is a condition for signing the NAP in the first place. So seeing as Thoth has violated the terms first this NAP is null and void.

But the problem with that assertion is that you're assuming that Thoth did break the clause. I'm arguing that a) the wording is too vague to support that (it can indicate it but not support that, hence me saying it is "strongly worded letter" time), b) that Mardoc is even transmitting Thoth's words to WK, and frankly the more I think about it the more I'm suspicious that Mardoc is throwing a spinner here, neither Thoth or Mardoc are showing the initial conversation, and both are very consistent in publishing diplo, and at least Thoth would have reason to post it in his spoiler thread for feedback (before publishing it).

I just think that either WK is beginning to feel isolated here and looking for a justification to be able to discard his NAP or Mardoc either realising or suspecting that WK had fallen out of the COW decided to spike the withdrawal with a fabricated diplomatic note. There is just too much here to throw everything away (even working from the point of WK alone) and go all out.

If it is case 1) then WK is pushing to break the NAP on a suspicion at best, or 2) Mardoc has pulled off one of the most Vetinarian ploys I've seen here.

[Bobchillingworth]

I get the impression that WK is fond of flimsy excuses for getting into wars. His beef with the Sheaim doesn't make a whole lot of sense either. "You possibly maybe sunk a fairly insignificant boat of mine, so I'm going to try to destroy you, without even first asking you to clarify what happened." I can sort of see his side with why he wants to fight Thoth- I'd be upset too in his situation. But as Selrahc pointed out, again he isn't even bothering to contact Thoth to find out what the deal was with him apparently leaking the NAP details. Obviously he's doing it to preserve the element of surprise, but purposely remaining ignorant about what really happened regarding your boat / secrecy clause by intentionally not contacting the supposedly responsible party, just so that you can maintain a plausible excuse for why you're going to surprise attack, them is pretty slimy. Kind of reminds me of the USS Maine in the Spanish - American War; don't investigate too hard why your boat actually exploded, or you might not any longer have a "valid" excuse for a war.