[Spoiler] Team slowwalk of the Reservoir Cats (Suleiman/Korea, slowcheetah + Catwalk)

[slowcheetah]

Sounds good to me. I should be around at least some of the evening.

[Catwalk]

Talked lots and lots with xenu, remind me to post logs tomorrow. He's asking for our participation in a catpile against Sian as he just landed GLH a mere two turns before xenu was able to chop it out. Luckily for him, he managed to preserve the chops. We're definitely building a strong relationship with xenu, he trusts us fully and is interested in close coordination.

Also talked a little bit dazed about the possibility of a catpile, he sounded interested. I was on my way to log off, so I promised him I'd look him up tomorrow.

Problem is that xenu is planning on razing the agressive settlement dazed made, it might be hard to get him to join us in a catpile after that goes through. Another problem is that we have zero military

[slowcheetah]

We definitely dont want to be fighting right now, even if Sian does have the GLH +stonehenge he isn't considerably ahead of anyone yet, and our oracle pyramids gambit should allow us to keep pace technologically if not in expansion. Besides as you say we have sod all military, and no plans on getting any anytime soon

Good work on the trust though that could prove important. Only thing we want to watch out for is the formation of two blocks (dazed/Sian + Xenu/Us), because Dazed and Sian definitely have more experience of MP warfare in general.

[Catwalk]

I tend to agree that Sian is not far enough ahead that we absolutely need to stop him. Just denying him trade routes could be sufficient. However, that isn't to say that ganging up on him might not be in our interests. I've suggested to xenu that he might use all those chops he was planning on turning into the GLH for units instead, donating some of them to us in exchange for some other form of payment. Sian has as little military as we do right now, and he is not in Slavery yet.

I agree that the bloc formation is our biggest threat, we don't want to be on the losing side of a 2v2. Sian is probably looking into such an arrangement already, we want to pull dazed away from that. Given that he's quarrelling with xenu, that might be difficult. Suggestions?

[slowcheetah]

Personally I think attempting to slow him down is only going to waste resources and let Dazed run out ahead. The GLH is good but it isn't the be all and end all, denying open borders will be a fine way to slow him. We also don't want to be doing large unit trades right now, because that reveals how closely we've been working to the others. Possibly driving into a two vs two situation. Currently what we should be working on is a trade embargo, with noone from Dazed, Xenu and us having open borders with Sian. This would have the effect of pulling him away from a bloc with Sian.

[Catwalk]

I tend to agree. Any idea how to ensure dazed will cooperate on the trade embargo while xenu attempts to burn down his expansion? Sian mentioned that he has a deal with dazed about silver settlement. We have half a deal with Sian about silver settlements, nothing agreed on yet though.

[Catwalk]

Chat with xenu

22.12
mig: Hey xenu

spacetyrantxenu: holler!
22.13
mig: I can't be reached very reliably on this e-mail for anything other than chat purposes, that's all I use it for

So I didn't see your earlier e-mail until now

Did slowcheetah send you a reply?

spacetyrantxenu: oops. hotmail is the right address, then?

mig: That's where to reach me most reliably, yes

Our scout teleported once the settlement was made, so we had no visibility on the town

Before then we saw a warrior approaching with a worker
22.14
spacetyrantxenu: so one warrior or two?

mig: We only saw one

spacetyrantxenu: (and no slowcheetah hadn't replied but that's ok)

ok, thanks for the info

mig: Welcome
22.15
spacetyrantxenu: if you're good at keeping secrets i'm sure you can figure out why i asked about the local militia....

mig: Hmm

You're proactively defending yourself from invasion?

spacetyrantxenu: that sounds like a great way to spin it, yes.

mig: I thought I'd help you put a republican twist on it

spacetyrantxenu: unless he has more than a warrior there in a few turns that city will be gone
22.16
mig: I can't say with any certainty that he won't have reinforcements coming shortly

spacetyrantxenu: if your scout is still nearby would you mind scouting around toward his supply train:?

mig: I can have a look at our most recent save and see where our scout headed

Do you know if it headed towards you or west?

spacetyrantxenu: your scout?

mig: slowcheetah played the last turn

Yes

spacetyrantxenu: hmm...hang on a sec, let me see if i can see it in my screen shots from this turn
22.17
i don't have visibility on your scout for now, but trees block my view forward. you may be in the tundra tile NE of the horses for all i know.
22.18
mig: k

We'd have no reason to be there, though

I'm checking

spacetyrantxenu: by the way, i hope slowcheetah talked to you about it, just confirming i'm not irritating you with my scout in your territory. he's defogging the coast so i can get a trade route from the other direction, since it looks like the ice blocks it from the near side
22.19
he had told me it was ok to send the scout through

mig: I would like to officially state that Team slowwalk greatly approves of other people making war with each other

That is definitely in our interests

spacetyrantxenu: he's hugging the coast so if you have nasty things you want to hide it should be easy

we don't intend to make much of a war. we just want this city removed because it's in the wrong spot
22.20
mig: You can count on us for fierce and loyal cheerleading

Unofficially, of course

spacetyrantxenu: if we're still sworn to secrecy here, i have another topic i'd like to broach...it also requires fierceness, but not so much cheerleading as active participation....

mig: We're definitely sworn to secrecy
22.21
As for participation, obviously I'd have to talk to slowcheetah first

I'm always interested in hearing you out, and it wouldn't be forwarded

spacetyrantxenu: i assume you saw sian landed the great lighthouse, and i assume you realize no one can (sanely) be expected to beat him to the pyramids. he says he'll have stone connected next turn....

mig: I actually didn't see him landing GLH

spacetyrantxenu: he did.

mig: But we're getting Pyramids next turn

spacetyrantxenu: oops you played before he did

mig: That's what our Oracle start was all about
22.22
spacetyrantxenu: ooohh, are you? that pleases mao greatly

mig: We gave birth to an engineer two turns ago

spacetyrantxenu: really? i didn't see an announcement about it.

mig: Hmm, it should be there

I saw it in the log

It pleases us even more greatly, that's all we have going for us right now

spacetyrantxenu: i'll check again next time i get the save, but i looked at the log today and don't remember seeing it

mig: We've made a few mistakes here and there, most notably that expansion location

But I think the Pyramids make up for it
22.23
spacetyrantxenu: well you still have as many cities as we do so that's not so bad

mig: Our locations kind of suck, but I think that's more of a long-term consideration

spacetyrantxenu: the three of you other civs all running farmer gambits with your NAPs makes for easy expansion vs. the guy actually building defensive forces

mig: Short-term it shouldn't affect us much

I warned you about that earlier on

spacetyrantxenu: (which i'm sure dazed will notice this turn)

mig: Btw our NAP with Sian has expired

We only signed short NAPs
22.24
spacetyrantxenu: excellent. i hope you won't renew it.

mig: So we haven't really had much protection

spacetyrantxenu: do you have lurkers in your thread calling for blood?

mig: No

spacetyrantxenu: lol

mig: They call for screenshots

We've turned into a text thread

spacetyrantxenu: i give them screenshots, i guess that's why they call for blood
22.25
they get at least a few screens every turn

mig: Wow, that's quite a bit

We give them a screenshot every few turns

spacetyrantxenu: i have to give them some reason to lurk a greens game.

mig: Our Oracle gambit worked out really well, even if we had to bribe Sian to stop sabotaging it

spacetyrantxenu: actually to be honest it's not every turn. when boldly plays no one gets a screen shot

mig: That's all we focused on for the past month, really
22.26
To the exclusion of everything else, other than a little diplo

spacetyrantxenu: well...if you can keep another secret...(i feel like trusting you in this game, just don't abuse mao). i didn't really want to tell anyone so i could keep you guys worried about what we're doing with our hammers, but if sian had left the lighthouse for two more turns it would have been mine.
22.27
mig:

We feel for you, we would much have preferred you landing it

spacetyrantxenu: it's ok. that brings us right back to the topic i wanted to bring up...i'd kind of like to go find it and burn it down.
22.28
that falls squarely in the "if i can't have it you can't either" category

mig: That would be very pleasing to the cats

Would it really benefit you, though?

spacetyrantxenu: you would have to help us burn it to make it worthwhile. dazed, too

so that no one bears the burden of doing it alone

mig: A 3 on 1 sounds a lot more fun
22.29
But with you thinking about burning down dazed stuff, would he feel very happy about that?

spacetyrantxenu: right. i'm not looking to destroy him for playing a good opening. but i can't allow him to be a runaway
22.30
dazed should understand why i'm burning his city. it's a legitimate security concern for me and an overly aggressive forward plant on his part. if i'm able to capture it with the force i'm sending it means he didn't reinforce it well enough and doesn't deserve to keep it. if he's the logician his people claim to be, he will accept the incident is his fault for building the city in the first place.

at that point the logical move would be to help me pull the leader back to the pack. as part of a 3 on 1 dog (cat) pile, that wouldn't be hard to do.

mig: What have your dealings with him over this been so far?
22.31
spacetyrantxenu: just some conversations about what we could do (in the future) to make it right, since there's no resources to trade yet, or coin to change hands. it's all empty promises, though, because while we wait on a possible future transaction he can reinforce the city, build walls, build culture, and threaten my core. that isn't allowable from my standpoint.

he has offered to gift a worker and/or an immortal, but those won't cover the lost resource tiles or security.
22.32
mig: Hmm

If he were to gift you an immortal anytime soon, that could go a long way towards going after Sian

spacetyrantxenu: rather than gift it to me he should just send it after sian himself

we can build chariots, good enough.
22.33
mig: As for Sian

Denying him open borders would somewhat counter GLH

spacetyrantxenu: right. but he'll still get the benefit of being able to spam city after city and out REX everyone else
22.34
plus with earlier courthouses to mitigate expansion costs, he can really open up a lead if we leave him to keep farming
22.35
mig: I need to go to bed before too long (not just yet)

Has been a long day, just got back from 2h of driving back from a trip to see my brother
22.36
I'm somewhat concerned about dazed + Sian teaming up against us

spacetyrantxenu: no worries. has dazed even sent the save yet? i think sian is going to be away until tomorrow so there's no rush on the turn

mig: Nope, we haven't played today

Ah

spacetyrantxenu: maybe. but if dazed is smart he'll see sian as the bigger threat than me
22.37
in demographics we lead in population (until we whip again) and military. those don't get you ahead

even though sian's GNP is inflated by culture he's still ahead there i think

GLH will push that.

mig: Do you know anything about any NAPs Sian may have with dazed?

spacetyrantxenu: i think they may have one but i don't know the terms of it
22.38
i hope it's short term only

mig: We signed a t55 NAP with dazed

He emphasized that he wasn't much of a fan of NAPs

spacetyrantxenu: good
22.39
i'd be fine with signing a short term NAP with him, if i didn't think he'd use the NAP period to build up for an attack at the end

(that is, after his new city is razed)

mig: I'm still a bit worried about the whole burning his city and then asking him to team up plan
22.40
I don't fault the logic of it, but I think you might be adopting a too optimistic perspective on his reaction

spacetyrantxenu: maybe. but if he wants to keep fighting over something he caused, i can't really help it.
22.41
mig: I have an alternate idea

spacetyrantxenu: i just hope he realizes the error and is able to move on.

mig: Just thinking out loud

spacetyrantxenu: ok
22.42
mig: 1) You let him keep the city

2) He pledges to demilitarize the city, max garrison of one warrior
22.43
3) You sign a NAP

4) He lets you have visibility on the city at all times

Something along those lines
22.44
Would give you reasonable security
22.45
Also, he'd compensate you

A worker or whatever is reasonable

spacetyrantxenu: a few problems with that idea is that 1. he has told me he dislikes agreements that last forever (no permanent agreements,basically, since they lock you in). 2. i doubt he'd be satisfied with a front city guarded by a warrior, NAP with me or not -- nothing says you couldn't sneak attack him. 3. most seriously, his city location is in he wrong spot and invalidates an way we could use our source of wheat over there, or fur, if we are to maintain a useful dot map for the area.

the city really has to go.

mig: Wouldn't be permanent

But okay, just thinking out loud
22.46
spacetyrantxenu: i'm not opposed to him getting that silver, he just has to build in a better spot that doesn't give him such easy access to my capital. where that city is built when it gets 2nd ring borders it will be FOUR tiles from my capital. i can't leave a rival city there.
22.47
mig: I will trust your judgement then

Would you be interested in our help diplomatically?

In terms of organizing a catpile on Sian along with this
22.48
spacetyrantxenu: of course i'd always appreciate the help. it's been said before at RB that managing a dogpile is like herding cats, but with a cat as part of the team maybe it won't be so bad.
22.49
mig: Cats are natural leaders!

Very bossy and self-important

spacetyrantxenu: leaders at...laying around, sleeping, doing what they please..yes!

mig: ^ sounds like a leader to me

spacetyrantxenu: i have three myself. there's no governing them.

mig: See? They're in charge, not you
22.50
spacetyrantxenu: well. i enforce an artificial pecking order. i'm in charge, it's just that everyone suffers for it. (you know, this sounds a lot like how i'm playing Mao. inspiration from real life!)

mig: Wise words
22.51
I will post this chat in the thread, and hear slowcheetah out about it

We were planning on getting together tomorrow to discuss long-term plans anyway

Those have been suffering under our inactivity this past week

spacetyrantxenu: we can bring up the sian dogpile when dazedhas hopefully got over his irritation. but in the meantime if you wanted to start building an army....

mig: I will admit that we're in full farmer's gambit too
22.52
spacetyrantxenu: oh, did you ever get your circumnavigation bonus?

mig: Yep, received and paid for

spacetyrantxenu: i know you're all 3 in a farmer's gambit, i watch the power graph

i know how little we have and how much it looks like compared to everyone else!

mig: What do you know about Sian?
22.53
spacetyrantxenu: i've only seen one of his cities, the front city Elizabeth. he has inflated GNP by culture but good numbers in MFG and GNP anyway. and apparently he doesn't have pottery, I think I heard that somewhere. so....an interesting start. fast starting, but with unconventional play it sounds like

that's what i know of his opening here. did you mean outside this game?
22.54
mig: No, in this game

spacetyrantxenu: ok

that's what i know about this game, then.

mig: Handful of warriors?

spacetyrantxenu: probably has a few axes thrown in for good measure

i'm not sure about archers

or HAs. probably some chariots and spears are possible
22.55
basically i'm sure he has the tech to build many kinds of units, i just don't think he has built much yet

to step back for a minute to the goal of the proposed anti-sian campaign, it would be to burn cities, not capture

since if 3 people contribute and one person captures, that wouldn't be a fair distribution of loot.
22.56
(barring uneven participation, of course). city capture plunder can be shared once we know currency

mig: Technical question

Immortals get their bonus against bowmen?

CFC says bonus against archery units

What about chariots and vultures?

spacetyrantxenu: archers/bowmen/longbows
22.57
chariots wreck vultures just as much as they wreck axes. worse i think because aren't vultures strength 4 instead of 5?
22.58
mig: Vultures are strength 6 instead of 5

Wasn't sure if the bonus was effective

spacetyrantxenu: basically, all UUs are susceptible to counters of their base unit replacement.

i think

mig: Alright, thanks for the clarification

spacetyrantxenu: ah, ok, so maybe the chariot isn't as useful against a vulture as against an axe, but it's still going to be effective.

mig: Would be the best counter, yes
22.59
Sadly, we haven't hooked up horses yet

spacetyrantxenu: i'm pretty sure you and i could comine a stack of units and defend that way if we were both at war with him

mig: Our city placement really isn't good

spacetyrantxenu: if his vultures threaten your attacking axes, we could put bows on top of the stack to mitigate the attack (if we stick to safe terrain, say hills, our bows would be tough for him to kill)
23.00
combined arms for the win
23.01
as long as i didn't accidentally declare war on you every turn i followed you (or you following me which is more likely since sian plays in between us)

in a hypothetical combined arms stack, i would advance my force onto a tile, end turn, and on your turn you could move you army onto the same tile as me and we could protect each other's stack against him
23.02
mig: Too bad we didn't discuss this earlier, btw

spacetyrantxenu: as long as you don't accidentally declare war on me. only thing is we'd have to both make sure to declare war on him before he attacked the stack, or i think your units wouldn't defend and he could just attack mine (or vice versa if it was me not at war and you were at war with him)

mig: You grabbing the GLH from him was nigh impossible, with him being both Organized and Industrious
23.03
And we knew with certainty that he'd be going for GLH

So we could have started scheming a little sooner, a single bowman could probably have stressed him out big time 5 turns ago
23.04
spacetyrantxenu: i knew it was a long shot at the start. but we only planted that city 17 turns ago. in that time we've whipped it into shape to be 2 turn from the GLH without wasting any chops. it isn't a great loss

mig: That's not bad at all, too bad you didn't make it

spacetyrantxenu: all the chops were going to finish in 2 turns with the needed base hammers

yeah
23.05
maybe he was smart to not revolt into slavery after all. then i would have been 1 turn

mig: Anything planned for the chops? Military?

spacetyrantxenu: not now. probably workers and settlers

i'll have to figure that out with my brother

it will probably depend on how pissed dazed is

mig: If you were to supply more than your share of military for the campaign, we could compensate you

Would let us get moving faster
23.06
As our military production capability looks a bit... sad

spacetyrantxenu: if you get into representation that will help. are you SPI?

mig: Imp/Phi

spacetyrantxenu: doh

mig: No power combos
23.07
spacetyrantxenu: i was thinking you could use MP for a bit but no such luck

mig: Spi/Phi would be sweet

spacetyrantxenu: to catch up miliary production. but not worth anarchy.

mig: You mean police state?

spacetyrantxenu: lol, yeah, commodore doesn't see gandhi as an underused leader

yeah
23.08
what did i say, MP? military police? ha

mig: I definitely want to try Gandhi in my next game, I'm really liking this Oracle start

Spi would both speed up the start considerably and give a lot more long-term power

Matches a Phi leader perfectly
23.09
Can play around a lot more with the religious civics too, since I'd be going down that tech path anyway

spacetyrantxenu: yeah, he's fun

definitely part of the india/fast worker/leader power combo

mig: xenu, I have to run

spacetyrantxenu: ok, it's been fun

mig: Will you be around tomorrow about this time or a little earlier?
23.10
spacetyrantxenu: i get IMs on my phone and since i'm not working tomorrow, anytime should be fine

mig: Or even earlier than that, really

You should be able to catch one of us online

spacetyrantxenu: it's quite late for you anyway. but i'm around whenever.

mig: And we'll discuss in the afternoon most likely

Sounds good

See you!

spacetyrantxenu: just talk it over with cheetah, see if he's interested in the catpile
23.11
farvel!

mig: He's the more warl-like of the two of us, actually

I'm the scaredy cat

spacetyrantxenu: excellent

mig: Bye bye

spacetyrantxenu: bye
22 minutter
23.33
mig: Had a very brief chat with dazed

He approved of the sentiments of keeping Sian in check
23.34
Will talk with him more tomorrow

Bye!

Chat with dazed

23.11
mig: Hey dazed, you around?
23.12
I'm off for bed, will be on more tomorrow

We note with some concern that Sian landed GLH
23.13
Can we discuss this in confidentiality? Ie. with nothing forwarded to Sian

johnmark1107: i just got home

sorry

we can definitely do that
23.14
mig: We fear he might run away unless stopped one way or another

Obvious way is denying him trade routes, will dull GLH quite a bit

If he gets foreign trade routes, that's a whole bunch of commerce he'll be landing
23.15
johnmark1107: that will help

mig: Will you be around tomorrow?
23.16
johnmark1107: off and on

but pretty regularly

mig: Alright, we will probably run into each other

I will be chatting a fair bit with slowcheetah tomorrow to discuss long-term plans

Will discuss diplo as well, given the new situation
23.18
johnmark1107: sounds like a plan

mig: I'm off then, see you!

[slowcheetah]

I thought we had an agreement with Sian that we could settle our northern silver, what's incomplete about it?
We should just start off by seeing if Dazed likes the idea, if he does great. If he has objections due to Xenu's involvement then we'll have to reconsider.

[Catwalk]

It's incomplete in the sense that we don't have a NAP Any agreement is void during war, a border agreement without a NAP has no real meaning. I saw it as informal inquiries about plans rather than an ironclad deal. Also, I crossposted chat logs above.

[slowcheetah]

More Diplomacy- Diplo is a bit like overcooked beef, tough and unsatisfying.

Logs- Dazed

dazedroyalty: hey oh

3:21 PM me: hey dazed

dazedroyalty: talking re: sian

3:22 PM me: ah the proposed catpile
personally I think a trade embargo is more appropriate at this stage of the game
he's not a runaway yet
although obviously he has big expansion potential with henge and GLH

dazedroyalty: that seems to be catwalk's perspective too

3:23 PM me: what do you think about the situation?

dazedroyalty: most of my focus currently has been on Xenu

3:24 PM me: I can imagine
but surely an embargo would be quite valuable in this situation for you

3:25 PM dazedroyalty: how so?

me: allows you to focus some resources on Xenu with less worry of Sian running away expnasion wise

dazedroyalty: well i'm most likely not gonna tell you my plans re: Xenu
since he seems to hear quite a bit from you already1
:P

3:26 PM but obviously i don't want Sian to run away with it
me: haha thats fair enough

3:27 PM I don't particularly need to hear any of your plans regarding Xenu
was just wondering if you'd be on board with the Sian embargo

dazedroyalty: here's the situation as i see it
3:28 PM wait
3:29 PM this is off the record with Sian
but are we off the record with Xenu as well?

me: We can be yes

dazedroyalty: okay
then here's the deal

3:30 PM you and Xenu are clearly the tighest two teams at the moment
so if I alienate Sian i'm the odd man out
so that's not a good place for me to be
but i do like the idea of keeping him donw and working with you

3:32 PM me: Ok, that seems fair enough

3:33 PM the diplomatic situation with Xenu has actually just kind of evolved naturally
we were initially at odds with Sian over the oracle
and with Kuro over his turnpace

3:34 PM dazedroyalty: yeah
i understand
and don't disagree with you
just commenting on what I see is the reality

3:35 PM me: yeah, however, I dont think any relations are anywhere near solidified at this stage, most of the land isn't even settled

dazedroyalty: true but foundations are being set
3:38 PM so i'm not against it whole sale
but i am concerned about teh long term future

me: yeah I get that
diplos tricky isn't it

dazedroyalty: i don't really enjoy it tbh

me: the game is much simpler, you either have enough production or you dont

3:39 PM dazedroyalty: i mean, i like chatting with players abotu teh game
but not making deals

me: yeah same here
3:40 PM Catwalk seems to be much better at that kind of thing

3:41 PM ok, lets keep trying this, so if things cool down with Xenu then you'd be interested in a trade embargo?

8 minutes
3:50 PM dazedroyalty: well a lot depends on things between your great nation of cats and mine
3:52 PM since Xenu could try to pull you in against me now or in teh future

3:53 PM me: yeah I get that
although I think I'd rather strenuosuly resist that

dazedroyalty: now
but later?

3:54 PM me: later you might pull us in against Xenu
or we might pull one of you in

dazedroyalty: true.
but my sense is your relationship with Xenu is stronger than ours
so it's less likely to fall my way
(by which i mean in game)

3:57 PM me: would it make you feel any safer if we offered open borders when we have writing?
I dont know how far you've scouted would you get our trade routes

3:58 PM dazedroyalty: i'd have to send a scout
TR only work if you can SEE the city

me: ok, I thought it was just the edge of the culture
dazedroyalty: to trade that's all you need
but trade routes need to see teh city

3:59 PM me: ok, well im sure we can allow some scouting
4:00 PM although don't laugh too much at our horribly placed second city

dazedroyalty: that's all good
and we could work out deals about that
i think mutually scouting for the sake of TR is a good plan
and definitely fosters godo relationships

4:01 PM me: if we established trade routes, would you be fine in joining the proposed embargo?

dazedroyalty: not indefinitely because things might shift
but i would be ready to committ to not signing OB for while

4:02 PM me: that souns good, it's the early expansion boost of the GLH im really worried about anyway
later on it'll help but not be quite as huge
4:05 PM ok that sounds good. We'll get writing in three turns
4:06 PM either me and catwalk can send you a message then and we'll flesh out the details

dazedroyalty: sounds like a good plan

Summary: I agreed not to discuss most of this chat with Xenu, so Catwalk needs to read it :P

• Dazed is worried that we are closer to Xenu, and was reluctant to embargo Sian without some assurances that us and Xenu wouldn't ganag up on him later
  
• I offered him open borders in the future, this can be tied to a deal on the embargo. Although an indefinite embargo is out.
  
• We'll work out the details when we get writing.
  

Xenu

me: hey Xenu

Tyrant: Hello

me: was firstly wondering whether our scout could start scouting along your coast next turn?

Tyrant: Go for it. Just no sharing any info you might find with any third party.

me: ok agreed
thanks

Sent at 3:30 PM on Saturday
Tyrant: Np, you're doing the same for us. But your scout will probably have to go south all the way down my western coast to establish a trade route since ice blocks the east coast route.

me: ok sure, thanks for the advice
Sent at 3:32 PM on Saturday

Tyrant: Np
Have you seen the turn yet?
me: yeah I just sent it on

Tyrant: Wondering if I'll get to play before I'm gone all afternoon.
Ok

me: Sian's online so if he plays then probably yeah

Tyrant: Cool
Sent at 3:34 PM on Saturday

me: are you stil interested in a trade embargo on Sian?
Sent at 3:36 PM on Saturday

Tyrant: At a minimum. I was interested in a tri-lateral agreement to burn his lighthouse but I think dazed wants to hold a grudge against me.

me: well you are planning on razing his 5th city

Tyrant: i am.
we've discussed it quite a bit and there really isn't an alternative that is acceptable to me.
if you guys had settled a city with level 2 border 4 tiles from my capital i would have razed it, too.
it's just too close for security.
but you guys would have probably talked to me about it first. or scouted the area and seen how close it was to my existing land and probably wouldn't have settled it.
either way, it was a mistake to settle so close to a rival.
Sent at 3:40 PM on Saturday

me: yeah it is pretty close, we wouldnt have had as much of a problem because our capital is rlocated rather more centrally in our hub
Sent at 3:42 PM on Saturday

Tyrant: you probably would have asked before settling though, or scouted it out first.
either would have prevented this situation. i'm not saying he shouldn't get that silver. i'm saying he just went about doing it the wrong way.
if he settled the city on the other side of the silver and didn't invalidate our settling spot in the area (for wheat and furs) i would have had no problem with the city at all.
it would have left me a defensible border site and the resources i needed.
but it doesn't matter, we'll see what the map looks like when he sends me the save.
Sent at 3:45 PM on Saturday

me: ok I see
Sent at 3:47 PM on Saturday

me: and I do see your point, looking at the map that city has a good shot at your capital
would there be any kind of compensation youd consider?

Tyrant: i don't want to punish him. i don't need reparations...i just want the city removed and my invalid settling location revalidated.

me: fair enough

Tyrant: i'd even be willing to give back the plunder cash to him when i take it. that would partially compensate him for the lost settler. (when i have currency, or he does)
i hadn't thought of that before
but that will be a small amount on a size 1 city anyway, right?

me: probably yeah
seems a reasonalbe suggestion though
would you have any problems with us having open borders with both you and dazed?
when we have writing?
Sent at 3:51 PM on Saturday

Tyrant: what you do with dazed is between you and him, but we would request as a matter of trust between us that you mention nothing of what you see in our empire to him (whether unit builds, if any, or what tiles we may be working, poulation changes...he can either scout us himself or do his own C&D work)

me: ok sure

Tyrant: are you even going to be able to establish a trade group with dazed yet?

me: there may be a possiblity of it

Tyrant: it's either across the tundra wrap or the jungle wrap
you don't have a direct coastal connection to him
unless you're planning to use my empire as a connector to trade with him
Sent at 3:55 PM on Saturday

me: thats a fair point
Sent at 3:56 PM on Saturday

me: that may happen

Tyrant: that may put you in a very american position during an english/french war, trading with both sides

me: haha yeah
although the idea of it is that he'd get Trade routes from us and then not need them from Sian

Tyrant: good for you.

me: so be more likely to join the embargo

Tyrant: don't let him play the "likely to join" card. he either needs to cooperate with us or the whole scheme is pointless. i'm not going to set myself back if he's not going to.
if he's determined to be a belligerant, that is.
(diplomatically speaking, not personally that is)

me: yeah I know

Tyrant: i still don't like how the whole plan has changed from enthusiasm for burning a few wonders to "maybe we'll arrange closed borders."
eventually the power of those trade routes will propel him forward. especially since it cost him so little do build it.
he didn't have to give much up to build it is what i mean to say.
basically a bit more than a settler, i think.
anyway, i'm rambling.

me: what you say is true
but more then half the land is left unsettled

Tyrant: true, but he needs fear no maintenance cost now. every city he builds will cover its own cost just on trade routes.

me: well be much better off settling that then mounting a razing campaign

Tyrant: so he can spam city after city.
no one else can afford to do that

me: lack of OB's will reduce the effectiveness of those trade routes though

Tyrant: the good thing about an invasion is that it would force him to slow expansion and build defenses

me: but it would also slow down our expansion
and I doubt you and dazed are going to be able to cooperate after razing his city

Tyrant: that was the beauty of an international invasion plan. all of us are set back a bit, sian is set back a lot.
i'll be able to cooperate. if he wants to hold a grudge that's up to him. he made a mistake placing that city, it should be pretty clear.
you can either accept your mistake and move on, or you can try to maintain you didn't make a mistake and persist in holding the position you weren't wrong. i know it sounds stupid for me to just flat out say he is wrong since it's only my opinion...but i've made that point alrady.
Sent at 4:06 PM on Saturday

me: he may come roudn, but it'll probably be a bit sore initially
Sent at 4:10 PM on Saturday

me: btw apparently I was wrong and you actually need to see the citie in order to get trade routes
so feel free to scout out our cities so you can see them

Tyrant: ok

me: if your scout goes 2E then he'll be able to see our capital

Tyrant: i've already seen your capital, back in the early days

me: ah yeah i remember now
in that case id just keep following the coast
and dont laugh at our placing of our second city

Tyrant: so far i see headache, jaw hurting, on her period, and i see borders for the 4th city in the north
which was the second c ity?

me: the one in the north you havent seen yet

Tyrant: ok
is it built on the tile south of your worker?
Sent at 4:25 PM on Saturday

me: below the copper?

Tyrant: no i see that one
where is it from your capital?

me: well there is a worker north of the city

Tyrant: 4N 2W?

me: yes

Tyrant: you might have lost your crabs doing that
Sent at 4:27 PM on Saturday

me: we did

Tyrant: doh
me: we also could have had copper in the second city
which would have been convenient

Tyrant: yeah. we didn't know where copper was until we settled our third city
our copper popped where we originally wanted to build the city. had to adjust

me: thats a bugger

Tyrant: commodore said the mao player in 29v complained too :P
to which i replied, "thanks for the map!"

me: haha

Summary

• Xenu still wants blood but will settle for a trade embargo
  
• He says he is ok with us having OB with dazed provided we don't reveal anything inside his empire
  
• I told him he can scout out our cities, apparently city sight is needed for trade routes.