EitB v12 Wishlist/Progress

[Qgqqqqq]

I don't think you quite understand what's being discussed. You seem to be talking about fixing the art assets bug which forces the EitB version to exist, which is not what Kragroth was discussing.

I'm not addressing that because I don't understand quite how art assets work, but I know they're one of the more complicated of the systems running the game design, and quite likely to have references hidden away in various places - including, for example, specific portions of the dll. This would be something that need to be changed every time I released a version, including any patches like 10.1 or 11.1. If in the dll, which I consider very very likely, that means a new compiling every version, as well as finding every file and folder which references it. That's something which would take an unpredictable but likely very high amount of effort, for something I'm not sure is even wanted, and would not be a one off.

I don't know what exactly you mean with Hyborem, but bear in mind that I view fixing whatever is going on there as probably impossible (the Human Hyborem/Basium options were created by Sareln, I've no idea how they were coded but clearly they break the game, so I don't intend to try and address that). The only things I will be doing with Hyborem is seeing what was wrong with the unit spawning in 37, and adding a disclaimer to the Human options to say they don't work.


I have no idea what you're talking about with renaming every turn. Why on earth would that be necessary? The only change I plan on is making it so that you don't get an issue when starting the game. You'll still want two versions running side by side.


And my problem is very distinctly with Kragroths framing, not his ideas (though again, none of what you've said seems related to what he was saying). There is a fundamental lacking of any respect and abrasive dismissal of opposing ideas as a general theme to his posts, especially when relevant to me in modding, mapmaking and so on. In this instance, I chimed in with what I was doing and why I was doing it, and Kragroth proceeded to dismiss my reasoning, dictate who I had responsibility to, and call my actions bad practice that get us in trouble. I'm sick of it, tbh.

[Kragroth]

I'm sorry you're sick of hearing it, but it seems that you aren't listening or understanding. I'll try again.

Erebus in the Balance 11.1 needed the Erebus in the Balance folder which didn't come with the install. Nearly every newbie here: myself, Northstar, Old Lion Ventessel, jalepeno, and so on has had an issue with starting new games. Your instructions on the download page are still wrong:

Important Edit: If you don't have an old file named "Erebus in the Balance" in your mods folder, you will need to rename v11.1 so that it reads "Erebus in the Balance"

You can't have some people playing Erebus in the Balance v11.1 from the Erebus in the Balance folder and some playing Erebus in the Balance v11.1 from the Erebus in the Balance v11.1 folder. This is why I say renaming folders is a bad practice. People don't expect to have to follow additional manual instructions after you install and the instructions you did provide will cause trouble as stated above.

Regarding v12:

Choosing to withdraw from the mod naming scheme previously established has its significant disadvantages:

1. Installing will break existing PBEMs
2. Installing will cause trouble for people volunteering to take over Civs in Older PBEMs
3. Every time you ask people to rename folders, you invite errors and delays.

I get it, figuring out the Art Asset references will take some time and some work. If that's too much trouble or too difficult, that's why I've repeatedly suggested to include two folders in installation: Erebus in the Balance and Erebus in the Balance v12. It's not the ideal situation; it would be more ideal to just have properly referenced art assets within the Erebus in the Balance v12 folder, but if it's too difficult, it's the next best option.

Your references to other people playing are kinda silly because again, the primary people playing this mod are on this board. Other people will do just fine with a Erebus in the Balance version X folder . Very few people are playing this mod outside of this forum and FFH has already been dying for a long time which will make even fewer potential players. Most people who will play FFH, will play the Vanilla version, Ashes from Erebus, Tholal's mod,and/or Magister's Mod not this one.

It's seems illogical to make changes that will make it harder for the primary players.

[Qgqqqqq]

1. Installing will break existing PBEMs
2. Installing will cause trouble for people volunteering to take over Civs in Older PBEMs
3. Every time you ask people to rename folders, you invite errors and delays.

1, 2 are demonstrably false. What PBEM currently being played is done under the EitB setup? Why would any start under it? Where does choosing to leave the mod naming scheme previously established come from? No one is suggesting that!

The instructions are fine for anyone wanting to download the mod and jump right in. PBEM players will have to do something different, but it would be too confusing to list it all there. Starting a PBEM is like a month

Gah. I'll respond when I have time.

process. The cost of having to mention that everyone rename their folders is a drop in the ocean to that.

[Kragroth]

The current mod name scheme is to name the mod game with the title of the update (ex. Erebus in the Balance v11.1).

This is a very nice scheme. It lets people in MP and SP games continue to play their existing games while still updating. This is very nice because I remember distinctly losing games during the FFH era.

You are correct in that there are no current pbems here under "Erebus in the Balance". Eitb 36 is over so no current risk for current players of a pbem.

I suppose if the last mod you release is Eitb v12 and don't make a v12.1 or v13 , etc we are probably ok. But, if you or anyone else goes beyond v12, then we risk a problem.

You see, there's an inherent niceness to having a version number present: it's an easy way of telling if someone is up to date. How does one know if their install is up to date, well it's easy with a version number, either your number matches that of the current players or it doesn't by your folder. By overwriting you risk people forgetting that they didn't update or thought they updated but didn't or people that did update to the wrong folder but didn't. You see there's a plethora of things that can go wrong that are fairly well prevented by using the version number scheme.

I know you say that the issue of renaming folders is a drop in the ocean, but recent history has shown that this causes problems. Yeah, we fixed it but it cost us some days of delays. it seems silly to commit to a scheme that has shown to cause confusion while leaving behind one that will avoid those issues

[Mardoc]

I thought it was all tied together? You're planning to have the base folder be Erebus in the Balance, no version number, in order to get around the art asset bug. I was really glad when you started numbering the versions in the base folder, and I'd be sorry to see that revert.

Before, when Sareln did that, and I wanted to have both v7 and v8 running, I had to have two versions installed, not a surprise. The annoying bit was that I had to make sure whichever version I needed was named Erebus in the Balance, but they couldn't both be. So at any given time, I had to have either:

Erebus in the Balance
Erebus in the Balance v7

or

Erebus in the Balance
Erebus in the Balance v8

Renaming both folders each time I started a turn with a game in the version that wasn't currently occupying the main slot.

Sure, it's only ten seconds. But it's ten seconds for each and every turn, plus a minute if I forget and try to load, crash to desktop, three to four times a night - it added up.

This would be something that need to be changed every time I released a version, including any patches like 10.1 or 11.1. If in the dll, which I consider very very likely, that means a new compiling every version, as well as finding every file and folder which references it. That's something which would take an unpredictable but likely very high amount of effort, for something I'm not sure is even wanted, and would not be a one off.

I thought it was possible to change the links, so that they didn't care what the base folder was named. I think it's called something like absolute links vs relative links? Which, if I'm right (not a programmer, just a dabbler), would only have to be done once (yes, you'd have to find every reference, but not for each new version). And of course I wouldn't expect you to do it until you're ready to release a new version anyway. Heck, if it's something that doesn't require installing visual studio, I'd be willing to hunt those references for you. Rather spend an hour or three up front than 10 seconds every single new PBEM turn unto eternity.

I don't know what exactly you mean with Hyborem

Was just using it as an example of something you're planning to fix that isn't just a single number change, as a guess for the relative size of the work. Could be wrong, of course.

[Dreylin]

On a different note entirely, I have been meaning to post a suggestion for a while (since our duel ended) and I kept forgetting.

Late Era starts should not include the Religious techs. It's the best way I can think of for addressing the inherent problem of the "Religion Lottery" (it doesn't matter if the religions are still parceled out on a particular turn if you can still get the starting priest for researching the tech). It's meaningless in base civ as the Religions are all functionally identical, but in FFH it could be crippling to be completely locked out of a particular religion.

[Kragroth]

On a different note entirely, I have been meaning to post a suggestion for a while (since our duel ended) and I kept forgetting.

Late Era starts should not include the Religious techs. It's the best way I can think of for addressing the inherent problem of the "Religion Lottery" (it doesn't matter if the religions are still parceled out on a particular turn if you can still get the starting priest for researching the tech). It's meaningless in base civ as the Religions are all functionally identical, but in FFH it could be crippling to be completely locked out of a particular religion.

There's not a great solution short of being guaranteed a disciple in x turns. I'd say there's a lottery to found a religion, but not to gain a disciple to spread it.

[Qgqqqqq]

I don't know why you all wrote walls of text.

Yes, the mod will, from now on give no version names in the download.

But why would PBEMs be started under this format? Why wouldn't everyone rename as they do now? More relevantly, why would I have any control over that? Starting pbems in a mod without a version number is inherently stupid. No one should do it, no one does do it. I don't see the issue.

[Mardoc]

Starting pbems in a mod without a version number is inherently stupid. No one should do it, no one does do it. I don't see the issue.

...huh?

But if you don't include a version number, where does it come from? I can't just rename v11.1 as v13 and expect it to work, can I?

[Mardoc]

I don't know why you all wrote walls of text.

Because I don't understand where the disagreement is, so I thought I should specify my axioms until you object to one.