[SPOILERS] Might Makes Amurite -- Tatan tries not to screw up

[Tatan]

So apparently I've formed a congo line with that goblin.



He just keeps following me! Creep.


Also, I was wrong about being the only one not going worker-first; Mardoc grew a pop. And yes, I am actually bothering to watch these things, because right now there is absolutely nothing else to do.

[Tatan]

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So looking at this land, I am definitely going to have to research Fishing at some point relatively soon. Just too much coast and fishy food to give up, especially with that jungley interior. And having to go early Bronze Working for jungle chopping is the last thing I want to do (helLO, I'm on a SUICIDE MAGIC BEELINE HERE).

Still, decent land, numerous mana nodes, a (so far) secluded start--I can't complain about the map*.


*without sounding like a jerk :neenernee

[DaveV]

And having to go early Bronze Working for jungle chopping is the last thing I want to do (helLO, I'm on a SUICIDE MAGIC BEELINE HERE).

You can use adepts to clear jungle

[Tatan]

You can use adepts to clear jungle

Oh, yeah, I forgot Smoke works on jungles too! (I assume that is what you are referencing) Unfortunately, we appear to be getting a new map anyway, but it still could be useful.

[Tatan]

I find it a little frustrating that the mere existence of the Lanun and Octopus Overlords rules out so many cool map ideas. I think the problem really boils down to the fact that in FFH water tiles are subpar for every non-Lanun civilization. They're not exactly fabulous in base civ anyway, so with EitB's change to Fin most civs' coast tiles can be a whopping 2f1c, after of course you invest in the necessary infrastructure. Meanwhile, land improvements recieve boosted tile yields, especially farms, which are capable of producing 5 food from a fairly early point in the game (irrigation+Agrarianism+Sanitation) while irrigated base-civ farms peak at 4 food (and only at super late Biology).

Now, in a vacuum, that's fine; there are other terrain types that are mostly useless without resources (snow, tundra, desert). But then you have the Lanun, who take a whole terrain type that is all but useless to literally every other civilization and get as much value out of it as they could for floodplains. This means that you can't just balance water so all the players get an equal amount of it, because the Lanun can get so much more out the same amount of water than any other civ. Octopus Overlords are similiarly annoying; any large amount of water means OMG GET OO ASAP.

Of course, we can always just ban the Lanun and OO for these types of maps, so that the only maps for which they are legal will also usually be maps for which they suck. But where's the fun in that? This is supposed to be FFH, the mod where things are balanced through an even spread of overpowered stuff! It's true that there are other civs that can make great use of marginal terrain (the Ilians and the Infernals come to mind). But in the case of the Ilians, for example, it's not like there are tons of super snow-heavy maps that people are just DYING to play but which just can't be balanced with those darn Ilians in the game. Very few maps have a lot of snow to begin with, and even for the Ilians snow is marginally worse than grassland anyway.

Maybe there's some way EitB can address this; until then I guess we'll just have to give the mapmakers a tough job.

[NobleHelium]

I find it a little frustrating that the mere existence of the Lanun and Octopus Overlords rules out so many cool map ideas. I think the problem really boils down to the fact that in FFH water tiles are subpar for every non-Lanun civilization. They're not exactly fabulous in base civ anyway, so with EitB's change to Fin most civs' coast tiles can be a whopping 2f1c, after of course you invest in the necessary infrastructure. Meanwhile, land improvements recieve boosted tile yields, especially farms, which are capable of producing 5 food from a fairly early point in the game (irrigation+Agrarianism+Sanitation) while irrigated base-civ farms peak at 4 food (and only at super late Biology).

Actually this is an interesting point. Coasts are 2c, but the point stands. This proposal is pretty extreme but how about this - we make coasts 3c for everyone, but Lanun get -1c on coasts. If they need to be buffed elsewhere then buff them.

[Sareln]

Actually this is an interesting point. Coasts are 2c, but the point stands. This proposal is pretty extreme but how about this - we make coasts 3c for everyone, but Lanun get -1c on coasts. If they need to be buffed elsewhere then buff them.

Coasts are 2/1/2 with infrastructure for most people. For Lanun they are 3/1/2 with infrastructure.

Without infrastructure, it's 1/0/2 and 2/0/2 respectively.

This implies to me that the snowball isn't coming from the tile yield differential, but from the pirate cove improvement. If that's the case, perhaps the fix with the Lanun and water maps is to change the maturation curve for pirate coves and then have them get better with later techs...

I don't know how to deal with OO, it's literally built to rule the seas...

[Tatan]

Coasts are 2/1/2 with infrastructure for most people. For Lanun they are 3/1/2 with infrastructure.

Without infrastructure, it's 1/0/2 and 2/0/2 respectively.

This implies to me that the snowball isn't coming from the tile yield differential, but from the pirate cove improvement. If that's the case, perhaps the fix with the Lanun and water maps is to change the maturation curve for pirate coves and then have them get better with later techs...

I don't know how to deal with OO, it's literally built to rule the seas...

Forgot water tiles got those building buffs in EitB; I think your point about pirate coves is spot on. NobleHelium's solution seems workable, but I think it would feel more natural for the Lanun to keep their base water buffs and instead nerf pirate coves. What about this: since each PC you build already requires the cost of an entire workboat, what about reducing the maturation rate and nerfing the benefits they provide while allowing them to be planted two tiles apart instead of three? The Lanun would have to put a lot more investment in order to get the same yields, but ultimately having more coves would make up for it. As a side note, it would also make spacing micro a lot less annoying.


As for OO, I am unsure. One cool idea would be to give them some sort of ability to flood tiles and turn them temporarily or even permanently into water. Obviously, though, that would be pretty hard to program and even harder to balance properly...

[Tatan]

So while waiting for the game to restart, I broke down and did some actual planning. I've been doing some thinking on the best tech path for some magic ASAP.

Now, beforehand, note that I'm going on two basic assumptions:
-vanilla warriors will be enough to defend me in the early game all by themselves
-I'll be able to get by with the more typical worker techs (ex. seeing as the water start in Bob's map just got rejected, I probably won't need Fishing)

Both those could very well not be true, in which case I'll have to adapt, but for the purpose of this (very basic) thought experiment I'll assume they are correct. Also, note that I don't need Ancient Chants because the Amurites start with it.

So there are two groups of techs for this beeline: the basic worker techs, which I'll get out of the way first, and the magic techs.

The worker techs I expect I'll need in no particular order [normal speed beaker costs are in brackets]:
-Agriculture [80] - for crops, obviously
-Calendar [160] - early commerce from calsources will be critical, obviously, and I will likely go with Agrarianism eventually as well
-Exploration [80] - roads, meet resources
-Crafting [120] - primarily as a Mining pre-req
-Mining [200] - for mines and chopping, obviously
-Education [280] - for cottages* and Apprenticeship (adept exp FTW)

*Yes, I plan on going with the cottage economy instead of aristofarms. Why? Well, for one, it requires a lot less initial beaker investment (only Education itself). Two, in this game I will hopefully be able to have more time to get the cottages up and running. Three, I'm sick of Aristofarms, and want to see if EitB actually made cottages better enough in comparison.

Then, there are the magic beeline techs (again, no particular order):
-Mysticism [200]
-Knowledge of the Ether [360]
-Necromancy [640]*
-Sorcery [2000]

*Why this one in particular? Entropy and Death; both provide useful tier I defensive spells (rust and skeletons) that will support my vanilla warriors greatly.


So my approximately ideal tech path could go something like:
Agriculture
Calendar
Crafting
Mining
Exploration
Education
Mysticism
KotE
Necromancy
Sorcery

A total of 4140 beakers on normal, about 2760 on quick (give or take a few because of rounding). Hmm, that's a lot to research before I can get my first competant military units up... perhaps I can use a Elder Council-popped Great Sage to speed things up and bulb Sorcery (ha-ha, should of picked Dain ).

All idle calculations, of course, capable of being executed flawlessly only in Theory Land, where everyone goes exactly the speed limit on their segueways on the way to the Ralph Nader // Ron Paul presidential race debates.

[NobleHelium]

As for OO, I am unsure. One cool idea would be to give them some sort of ability to flood tiles and turn them temporarily or even permanently into water. Obviously, though, that would be pretty hard to program and even harder to balance properly...

Intuition tells me this is probably not possible. If it is possible then it'll probably require extensive rewriting of parts of the engine.