The more I think about it, the more I just don't want a border agreement with them. I'd rather roll back to our previous suggestion of a rolling NAP with a cancellation clause, take it or leave it. This is betting a bit on Pirates/Menagerie war existing and being semi-real, but I think it's a gamble with a big payoff if we can avoid death. All we need is 20 turns or so of a NAP and we'll be fine.
Ok, I'm not sure how to approach this, but here's my stab at it:
Draft to Menagerie Wrote:Menagerie,
We've been discussing a lot on how to respond to your message. To be frank with you, we just can't accept being boxed in like that. We don't want conflict at all, but we aren't comfortable signing away access to the middle of the map. From what we can tell, everyone is generally settling clockwise right now, and I think that's a part of the map design. For the land directly between us, we're of course happy to divide it up evenly, but a horizontal line just doesn't work because we are noticeably further east than you. I know you said the Trolls settling pattern shouldn't matter to you, but I think it matters just as much as the fact that you moved your settler - either both matter or neither matter.
We're open to a solution in which we concede two extra rows west of the mountain range (that's 8 tiles including a Wheat), but that would have to come with us gaining full access to land that is more under our control. That would be a more natural split really since you are further west.
Again, we're not at all interested in war, and surely you aren't either due to your war with Pirates. We are still of course interested in a rolling NAP with a 20T cancellation clause. To us, that seems like the best mechanism for preventing unfair settlings rather than a strict border agreement.
By the way - if you ever want to chat about it, let me know. Feel free to add scooter (realmsbeyondscooter@gmail.com) to your chat window if you think that would be easier.
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
So we'd give them a border with our stone city? And they give us the copper?
Well I like the idea of them having more coastal cities to boat, but I think the central one is going to be hard to defend... anyway you're right, the 20 turns of peace is the important thing.
The only thing I'm not sure about in your message is this line:
"surely you aren't either due to your war with Pirates."
Maybe it could be "and we hope you aren't either" ? I'm not sure why I don't like it though, so I can't justify it... otherwise good message.
Old Harry Wrote:So we'd give them a border with our stone city? And they give us the copper?
I don't see this as concrete, just suggesting that we're willing to make west-side concessions, but being locked out of the middle area and giving up cow + copper and all that isn't OK with us, and we won't sign it no matter what. That's the angle I'm going for here, just in kinder words. As I said, basically playing hardball a bit.
Old Harry Wrote:The only thing I'm not sure about in your message is this line:
"surely you aren't either due to your war with Pirates."
Maybe it could be "and we hope you aren't either" ? I'm not sure why I don't like it though, so I can't justify it... otherwise good message.
The implication is surely they don't want to get in a war with us given that they already have a war of their own. I would like to subtly communicate that they aren't in a position to fuss too much since they have a war of their own (we might get confirm/deny on this too btw which would be nice), although I'm open on how to word it differently.
scooter Wrote:The implication is surely they don't want to get in a war with us given that they already have a war of their own. I would like to subtly communicate that they aren't in a position to fuss too much since they have a war of their own (we might get confirm/deny on this too btw which would be nice), although I'm open on how to word it differently.
Would "Again, we're not at all interested in war, and we don't think you are either, with your northern issues" be too subtle?
0. Player Requests: The player's requests take precedence, even if they contradict the following guidelines.
1. Balance: The map must be balanced, both in regards to land quality and availability and in regards to special civilization features. A map may be wonderfully unique and surprising, but, if it is unbalanced, the game will suffer and the player's enjoyment will not be as high as it could be.
2. Identity and Enjoyment: The map should be interesting to play at all levels, from city placement and management to the border-created interactions between civilizations, and should include varied terrain. Flavor should enhance the inherent pleasure resulting from the underlying tile arrangements. The map should not be exceedingly lush, but it is better to err on the lush side than on the poor side when placing terrain.
3. Feel (Avoiding Gimmicks): The map should not be overwhelmed or dominated by the mapmaker's flavor. Embellishment of the map through the use of special improvements, barbarian units, and abnormal terrain can enhance the identity and enjoyment of the map, but should take a backseat to the more normal aspects of the map. The game should usually not revolve around the flavor, but merely be accented by it.
4. Realism: Where possible, the terrain of the map should be realistic. Jungles on desert tiles, or even next to desert tiles, should therefore have a very specific reason for existing. Rivers should run downhill or across level ground into bodies of water. Irrigated terrain should have a higher grassland to plains ratio than dry terrain. Mountain chains should cast rain shadows. Islands, mountains, and peninsulas should follow logical plate tectonics.
Menagerie Wrote:Trying to help spread out the duties a bit more so this is a new voice speaking, but still the same team.
I’ve spent some time reviewing the past messages and screenshots in greater detail so we can find a way to come to a good agreement. The first thing I’ve noticed is that the western line that you drew in your map is different than the line that we had detailed in the prior message and then shown in one of our images. You had your line drawn across the top of that last mountain in the range, but our line was originally described as being at the bottom of that peak (as can be seen in the image sent to you on Oct 4th). So it is unclear to us which additional tiles you are offering on the western side of the mountains for us to adjust the eastern side of the mountains such that you get that northeastern path into the center of the map.
Can you send us a new image with your proposed line so that I can review it and discuss with the rest of the team? That center land strip has been an important view for us to have, but if we can come to a good enough agreement on that western coastline we can see what deal can be made.
