New FFH2 PBEM?

[Northstar1989]

Just so you all know, I've been playing my turn while I wrote this. My play-window *just* ended (11 PM) and I think I found a way to reduce the impact of Old Lion's messing things up before to an even lesser impact- equal to 4 foodhammers loss instead of 8. I'm going to play this and send the turn on momentarily- trusting you guys to agree to the compromise (at least 1 foodhammer-handicap each, and 3 wasted Scout turns. IF you guys reject it, I can't promise I won't cause more delays arguing for some other sort of handicap...) I would still prefer if you handicapped yourself by 2 foodhammers each, although I can live with 1/each...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

Northstar,

I play these pbems for my own enjoyment and to relax and unwind at the end of a day. All I ever wanted from you was to have a turn in my inbox each day before I went to bed. You don't have authority over this game. It's a collaborative effort and so far everyone has been collaborating except for you.

You're not only incapable of playing the turn regularly, you're deliberately unwilling to do so. To me, this is what sets you apart from everyone else I've seen with PYFT issues. We've tried to compromise with you repeatedly and you have flat out refused every time. You say you're busy, and I do not doubt that. But I am also very busy. I'm averaging six 12-hour workdays per week right now. I am busy enough that I don't want to waste more time arguing with you.

I'm done with compromises. You either (1) find a way to play the turns reliably (either alone or with help) or (2) I'm done playing with you at all. Someone else can take over my civ if none of the following options reach consensus.

I am willing to do any of the following:

• Northstar immediately stops with this BS and reliably takes his turns from now on. No more drama. (At this point I do not expect this to happen but I would be okay with it.)
• Play on and replace Northstar with either an AI or another player.
• Cancel this game entirely since it's been consumed by his stupid drama. We have 340 replies to this thread and are only on turn 22 in game. This is absolutely ridiculous.
• Restart this game with either 4 players or with a replacement for Northstar. Either this map or a new one is fine. Either same picks or new ones is fine. I don't care. I just want to play FFH or EITB with people who are enjoyable to play against.

Ellmist, you guys hacked my password. Try, for a second, to place yourself in my shoes... I understand you're upset by the delays, but it is wrong to make them MY fault- you guys caused ALL of this by hacking my password... Did you think that wasn't going to create any additional drama? If you wanted to avoid drama- you should have spoken up against hacking my password when the decision was being made...

Regarding authority- I don't have authority over this game, but Kragroth does? (just because you like him more) No- the precedent on Realms Beyond is the person who starts the game has authority when issues come up. By disrespecting that, you guys disrespect the very idea- and every other player you have ever endowed with that authority, including Kragroth (who has that position in the duel league). And God, from a religious perspective- considering the Bible directs us to respect properly-obtained authority...


I'll take your post as being against compromise, since you did not list compromise anywhere in the options you were happy with. However there are still 2 other players (Kragroth and Tasunke) who could come out in favor of it- and either of them does I expect you to honor the compromise suggested- handicap yourself by 1 foodhammer production of one turn (NOT exchanging it for anything else- just outright losing it) and waste 3 Scout turns intentionally. Not a bad price to pay for hacking a password and forcing me to lose 8 foodhammers (or, if I am right about a certain idea, possibly only 8 commerce) and 3 Scout turns at a risk of losing said Scout as well... (BOTH decisions I did not make when I played Turn 20)


Regards,
Northstar

[Ellimist]

Yes, I understand you're upset about the password thing. I agree that I would probably be upset as well. However, I would not have put myself in such a position by deliberately refusing to fulfill my commitments.

Look back in this thread over the past two weeks and you will see that we were very willing to compromise with you. We asked, begged, pleaded with you. You were given ample opportunity to share your password with either Old Lion or someone else of your choosing and you refused. You were given plenty of opportunity to find common ground with another solution and you refused.

You keep asking us to understand how you feel about this. You make no effort to understand how we feel about it. You literally did not even notice when a full turn cycle went past you. Meanwhile, the rest of us were celebrating that the turn pace was finally where it should have been all along!

[Northstar1989]

Yes, I understand you're upset about the password thing. I agree that I would probably be upset as well. However, I would not have put myself in such a position by deliberately refusing to fulfill my commitments.

Ellmist, until my password was hacked, I NEVER deliberately refused to send on the turn. Don't try and conflate cause and effect- I intentionally delayed sending on the save (while seeking a replay from the turn that *I* played) because my password was hacked, the password was NOT hacked because I ever intentionally delayed sending on the turn.

Look back in this thread over the past two weeks and you will see that we were very willing to compromise with you. We asked, begged, pleaded with you. You were given ample opportunity to share your password with either Old Lion or someone else of your choosing and you refused. You were given plenty of opportunity to find common ground with another solution and you refused.

No Ellmist. You guys were *NOT* willing to compromise. Kragroth constantly threatened me, while the rest of you whined and complained every time I was late with my turn (because I was busy- NOT because I was delaying intentionally), but said nothing in public when anyone else like Tasunke was late. No compromises were offered, and nobody begged or pleaded- only insulted, attacked, whined and threatened.

You keep asking us to understand how you feel about this. You make no effort to understand how we feel about it. You literally did not even notice when a full turn cycle went past you. Meanwhile, the rest of us were celebrating that the turn pace was finally where it should have been all along!

Once again, you're misrepresenting facts (or your memory is very poor) Ellmist. I had no idea where the turn cycle was because you guys HACKED my password and were NOT letting me know when the turn had been sent. I had no way of knowing Turn 21 had been played without me until I received Turn 21 in my inbox- at which point I *IMMEDIATELY* came on here and started demanding a replay to the Turn 21 I had tried to send the previous evening. Apparently, by the time I received Turn 21 from Kragroth, Old Lion had already played Turn 21 (or at least, so Old Lion has informed me based on when he said he played each turn)- so Kragroth didn't even send THAT to me (or the tracker? Old Lion's and Kragroth's timelines don't make sense with each other- somebody must be getting their times/dates wrong...) until it was already too late to play it...


Regards,
Northstar

[Northstar1989]

OK, so I actually missed something else in my micro-calculations (you guys know I'm not the best at this- so I hope you'll forgive the constant revisions). It means I actually lost at least 10 hammers, as well as some beakers production. You all know that this early in the game that adds up to a HUGE snowball-effect...

In short, I suffered a MAJOR set of losses from Old Lion's botched turns, which is what I've been saying all along. I would still *prefer* a replay more than anything else, but since Kragroth dug in his heels against that (and Tasunke seems unwilling to just go with the replay turn I've sent out for him to play 3 times now already) I'm left only with the option of compromise to get some measure of justice. I would like to revise my request to 3 foodhammers/wasted by each player (Old Lion's screw-up led to an immediate loss of 4 food- which led to a loss of 6 hammers due to delayed city-growth and such, as well as conversion of 4 unneeded food into hammers down the line...) for each player, but only 1 wasted Scout turn (as I found an alternate, still safe route that only loses my Scout 1 turn to get back to relative safety from where I told Old Lion not to send him...)


Regards,
Notthstar

[Northstar1989]

Turn is sent, by the way- it ended up taking longer than I hoped to calculate the effects of Old Lion's turns as I kept missing things and having to go back and revise my calculations...

I expect Tasunke to either wait on the compromise or handicap himself expecting it to be accepted when playing his turn- otherwise we just end up kicking this down the road until the snowball effect of the early penalty becomes meaningless...


Regards,
Northstar

[Kragroth]

I am not going to redo this save. I am not going to purposely jinx myself. WHAT PART OF FINAL WARNING DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND!

I want Old Lion to play the turns whenever he is available to play them. This is a defacto removal of you. You do not understand what "final warning" means. Your play window constantly changes. This new play window is even worse. We would get the save every other day at best.

I repeat. I want Old Lion to play the saves as soon as he is able. I want Northstar out.

[Ellimist]

Northstar: I'm sorry I don't have time to refute you point by point. If you reread this thread and recheck your sent/received times you can easily see that all I've claimed is true. You seem to lack self-awareness quite a bit, but if you look at the evidence it should be obvious how things have gotten to this point.

Kragoth: things need to be unanimous on something like this. I would have preferred if the password decision had waited for unanimity as well.

If Tasunke and/or Saruman do not agree to remove Northstar, I'll continue to play turns I receive but I strongly prefer one of the options listed in my last post. If both agree, we'll need to see how Old Lion feels about taking over North's civ. It honestly may be better to just give up on this one as we're only 22 turns in.

Obviously, if things (somehow) continue without North's removal, I will not deliberately handicap myself.

[Saruman the Foolish]

Kragoth: things need to be unanimous on something like this. I would have preferred if the password decision had waited for unanimity as well.

This. I am plenty annoyed with the drama Northstar is making, but I unfortunately cannot bring myself currently to advocate for removing him from the game, largely in part to the fact that this latest episode was the result of Kragroth hacking his password, which I understand he felt was necessary, but should not have been done, and I regret not being around when this was decided. I say this with full understanding that having Old Lion take his place would jumpstart this game back to life, and make everyone involved happy excepting Northstar himself.

Northstar, my message to you is to make a decision. I realize we have been more than unfair to you, and it makes me feel like a total jerk. But its also is true that with things as they currently stand, this game will die. You are not the only one responsible for this, and have been scapegoated to a certain extent (i think myself and Tasunke have caused more than our fair share of delays as well), but while our delays are occasional, you struggle to find your play window nearly every turn. Perhaps you are simply too busy for a serious time commitment like a pbem. Cause while it is a game, it is also definitely a time commitment. So you need to think about whether you can reliably get to your turn ontime in the future and decide to either
A) drop out of the game completely as both Kragroth and Elimist want you to do. I know that would hurt as you have invested quite some time on your blog if I can judge by the number of posts. But it might be the best decision for you as well, particularly as your opponents are annoyed with you and future disagreements are bound to come up.
Or
B) take on a lesser role in the decision making process of your turn, relinquishing much control to Old Lion. Realize that because of your time commitments, he cannot be just your helper who's every decision you direct. This will now become his game as much as it is your's if not moreso, simply by dint of his reliability.

It is unfortunate but I see no other real options that would make this game go forward. At our current turn rate it will take us years to finish this, and people can't be bothered to wait around that long. You say you just started a new job as well, so things are unlikely to get much better. Think about it, and let us know what you want to do. Yes you have been wronged, but we cannot continue things as they have been.

[Kragroth]

I think all we need is a majority. We have been more than fair, more than accomodating, and more than patient.

1. Northstar caused a majority of delays. He did not improve.
2. Northstar was given a 1 week test to return FFA saves within 24 hours. He failed.
3. Northstar was instructed to work with Old Lion. He refused/ delayed
4. Northstar was reminded to work with Old Lion. He refused / delayed
5. Northstar was reminded a second time to work with Old Lion. He refused / delayed
6. Northstar holds save for 48 hours. Password is cracked and sent to Old Lion.
7. Lion plays two saves in a timely manner.
8. Northstar is late to his self professed play window again and demands replays.
9. Northstar is given final warning not to complain and to continue playing saves.
10. Northstar disregards final warning and changes play window again.

Again. We have been more than fair and more than patient. Northstar continually disrespects other players, does not listen, and does not improve. I do not like that we have reached this point, but we have reached it. I see no reason to end or restart this game. It should be continued in great haste to reach 1 turn per day which is only possible without Northstar.

I will continue to send saves to Old Lion and Northstar until we have majority agreement to send saves only to Old Lion.