[Spoilers] rho21 follows the works of Homer... D'OH!

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

could you give us a broad overview of Greece? We haven't seen the civ as a whole in a while. You've done great to hangi n there this long, when the Aztecs looked like they could run away with the game 150 turns ago!

[rho21]

As anyone lurking will probably have guessed from my recent reporting, I'm no longer seeing much to fight for in this game.

The Aztec cities are simply impregnable right now (they actually went up to 80 base strength this turn after some upgrades); with my navy variously destroyed and cornered, I can't see any way to hurt them.

Similarly they can't do much to harm me, but the Kongolese defences may as well be made of paper. With the Aztec control of the seas, I don't have enough forces to properly cover everywhere including defending Kongo.

Culturally I'm a little ahead, and slightly behind scientifically. Once I can fix the Geneva situation, it will be extremely close in terms of science rate.

What does that leave open to me? I could push on with tech, hoping to somehow beat the Aztecs in a space race, but I fear that would be interminable. We're still only about 70% of the way through the tech tree. Chances of success are low too, between the current Aztec science lead and the need to both maintain a defence and build all manner of ludicrously expensive things.

I could keep building my army and technology and try throwing everything against the Aztecs in the hope of doing some real damage. Without a way to actually hurt their city defences right now, that seems pointless. Flight provides observation balloons and aircraft to help get over this, but that's many many turns away.

Perhaps nuclear weapons are a more effective solution to this. I have no experience with them in Civ VI (does anyone have MP experience), but I gather they zero a city's defences, allowing for an easy capture. They apparently also generate an insane amount of war weariness, which I have no means of dealing with.


Overall, then, I feel the game has reached the stage where I'm just reacting to Aztec moves, with no way of making any military actions of my own that might threaten the Aztecs. On the other hand, I'm still competitive demographically, and certainly the Aztecs can't just roll over me whenever they fancy.

So, to the point of this post: should I keep playing or offer a concession next turn (T200)? (Assuming Japper is willing to concede, anyway, which I suspect has been true for about 140 turns now.) If I do continue, what route would you like to see me taking?

I reckon at least the first of those questions can be answered by both ded-lurkers and lurkers alike. Feel free to weigh in from a selfish lurker point of view (e.g. wanting the game to continue, wanting to see a nuclear war) or strategically: because you feel I have no chance left, or conversely that the game isn't decided properly yet.

[rho21]

CMF: I'm aware I've been a bit remiss with screenshots recently, but not all that much has been going on. I'll do a big overview next turn whether or not the game is going to continue.

[Garath]

It saddens me, but if I'm honest I can't see a way out against a production base that I'm sure is twice yours at this point, now that your hopes of tech edges seem to have gone as well (Darwin was a *really* big loss, I think) and your battleship plans came to naught.

[Chevalier Mal Fet]

The only real question about continuing to play is if you want to continue the game. If you want to concede, because you don't see a path to victory or you're just plain not having fun, that's entirely reasonable. But if you still think you have an outside chance (via a nuclear or space race), then why give up? If you're still enjoying it (from your reports, though, I don't get that impression), then keep going! Ultimately only you can decide whether to soldier on or not.

[Ituralde]

You are the one, who has to play the turns. Of course I would like to see Flight or Nuclear Weapons in one of these games, but you would be the one who has to click on Nest Turn for a few more months to make that happen. So do what you feel like doing!

[rho21]

Thanks for the replies.

I do feel that it's not solely a decision I can base on whether I want to continue: if I keep the game going for months longer, that puts the same requirement on suboptimal and Japper. Sure, they signed up to play the game for as long as it takes, but it would be unreasonable for me to keep on requiring them to play when we all feel the game is fully decided.

It could be argued that the game was fully decided 140 turns ago, when Egypt was absorbed by the Aztecs. While the likely (and eventual) winner was determined back then, I felt at the time that there was still work for suboptimal to do to prove the superiority of the Aztecs. I think that point of view has been vindicated by how close our positions still are in most of the economic statistics.

Of course I wouldn't feel at all bad about prolonging things if the Civ VI late game tended to reach a sudden brutal conclusion. Often the games on RB do at cavalry or before. But with Steel, city defences become so strong that either a big technological advantage or a decisive naval advantage (on a water map) is required to overcome them. Perhaps nukes have the same effect but I suspect they are simply too expensive to really turn the tide.

As it stands, continuing from here will be a slog for everyone, with only one plausible winner. I can see ways back, but they're tiny chances at best and I'm sure suboptimal can see them too. I think my best chance actually lies in the space race, and I'm sure no-one wants to see (let alone play) the 100 turns it would take to get there.

So, if Japper is in agreement, I'd like to tender my resignation and wish suboptimal congratulations on a hard-fought victory. I'm also perfectly amenable to continuing, should either Japper or suboptimal want to do so.

Whatever the decision, I'll report on the state of the Greek empire after 200 turns soon.

[rho21]

So how does this work? As I understand it, lurkers look through Japper's thread for a resignation. If that's present, they make the situation clear to suboptimal and ask if we should stop or continue. And then let me know whether to play on or prepare a post-mortem.

[Ituralde]

So how does this work? As I understand it, lurkers look through Japper's thread for a resignation. If that's present, they make the situation clear to suboptimal and ask if we should stop or continue. And then let me know whether to play on or prepare a post-mortem.

This is correct on all accounts. The Lurkerati are currently going through all the necessary steps.

[rho21]

I'm planning to give a quick overview of a few aspects of Greece and the game as a whole today and tomorrow. Then hopefully on Sunday I'll have time to write up a retrospective. I'm not planning to look at other threads until after that point.

A quick one for tonight, with all of my graphs:

Game end demographics

In strength I'm roughly level with the Aztecs, for what that matters. In practice the real strength at the moment lies in static defences, which are really tough to break with land units. So Aztec and Greece have effectively twice the strength of the other should we need to defend.

The population graph tells a story of Aztec dominance. Between Greece and Kongo combined, we're 15 population behind the Aztec total.

Science and culture tell a different story, where I look roughly level. Well, except for the temporary Aztec science jump thanks to breaking my control of Geneva. I expect that would have lasted until T202 when my next civic provided more envoys. I assure you our science rates would have been very close at that point.

Anyway, research has definitely been the big Greek success story of the game, though it's not beyond criticism in recent times. More on that in the retrospective though.