[Spoilers] Mahala in the Mist - the Doviello

[Ravus Sol]

looks good! And i also enjoyed the steel fist in a velvet glove metaphor.

I am surprised that your middle game plan talked about trying to get the Octopus Overlords or the Runes with both the lanun and the dwarves in the game. Although i suppose everything is too early to tell at the moment. Are all your mid-game plans going to be based around a religion though?

I'm allways surprised early aggressive civs don't try and sell their services as barb smashers or something. Do you have any plans for diplomacy games like this or will you be trying to just take advantage of the fear of a wolf rush for as long as possible?

[Mist]

These plans ( RoK, OO ) were floated before the scenario setup and player picks were finalised. I can still land either of them ( RoK is the top of great prophet bulb list once you have both mining and mysticism for example , and a chance of landing a prophet via an event is reasonable ) but having a religious capital is not essential.

So the answer would be no, I'm not basing the gameplan around a religion. Having one will help. Founding one early and cleaning up the uniques it provides will help more. But it's rather a secondary concern.

My primary point of focus is gold. Anything that brings more gold ( RoK, Aristoagrianism ), cheaper high tier units ( OO ), more research to drop the slider ( Veil ), more specialists ( sacrifice the weak ) or less upkeep ( order ) is on the cards and I will go for one or more of these things.

This should also answer your second question. I'm open to doing mercenary work for players that pick the early carrot and I will state so in my messages. The problem is that they will most likely not have a lot of spare cash for a while, so that's a future revenue stream.

[DaveV]

Um, those Hippus comments are kind of spoily for a thread that anyone from the first game could be reading (like me!).

[Mardoc]

Really? I thought I restrained myself to just public info about the Hippus (that is, everyone can see the declarations of war and demo graphs), and Mist didn't say much either, but I'll go back and remove my comments if you want.

[Iskender]

Hippus are not a rush civ. It is Tasunke who is a rush leader. Rushing with Rhoanna would be a waste of both of her traits (well, unless it's a settler rush).

[Mardoc]

Iskender, I've responded in your thread. Probably best not to distract Mist from his KILL DEATH MAIM messages anyway, even if we stay non-spoilerish.

[Mist]

(...) Probably best not to distract Mist from his KILL DEATH MAIM messages (...)

Now, now, that kind of crude language is absolutely not apropriate in this game. It's like I was playing Charadon or something. Now please repeat after me - eXpand, eXtort and eXterminate, eXpand, eXtort and eXterminate...

But not just yet, and not with elves as a target.

*Diplo Dump Warning*

[COLOR="Lime"]Our lands are to the south. We are glad to hear your people find the land to their liking, as ours despair of the state the Age of Ice has left this world in, with scarce food and few of the luxuries we are accustomed to. Perhaps in a couple of hundred years we will have restored this land to a shadow of its former beauty.

Indeed our people are not so different, respect for the natural order lies at the heart of both our cultures. We hear rumours of strange and unnatural things in this new world, a new race that enslaves and drinks the blood of others to prolong their lives, and of dwarves trying to create an unstoppable legion of soldiers from unliving rock and metal. Perhaps one day it may fall to our nations to save the world, we are not a warlike people but will fight fiercely when we must.
[/COLOR]

My thinly veiled muscle-flexing made an impact it seems. We've got some self depreciation of land under control, suggestions of simmilar backgrounds, pointing at common enemies and general cautionary sharp stick waving. Sounds good. So let's nail the point home.

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]And we are sorry to hear that the lands beyond southern jungles are cold and barren, although it might probably look much different in the eye of a nation that for generations saw only frozen wastelands everywhere around. I take it you'll want to push your settlements northwards then?

That might be fine. We might be tempted to share the hunting grounds between us when time for deliberating on such issues comes. But we remember tales of the Summer Court ordering forests, the trees themselves, to war. And there is a lot of trees to the south. We will not have such an army as neighbors. Any nearby settlements before the 'Marching Trees' question is resolved will be treated as hostile and their denizens as prey.

It is a simple and unrefined position perhaps, but we find that simplicity works. One of the few certainties we brought out from under shadow of Mulcarn. We can think of few ways to overcome the problem, violent and peaceful alike, but until it is behind us once and for all we suggest you keep your distance.

After that? You might find that there's a little more luxuries around and someone else is fighting your wars. We are, as you pointed out, not that different after all.

And there are others we'd rather hunt.[/COLOR]

In points :

• There's no such thing as bad land as far as Doviello are concerned
  
• If you want to settle north without commiting to closer relationship think again
  
• No common border unless we settle your worldspell problem to my liking
  
• Close cooperation might be worth you while
  
• And yes, I will go to war otherwise :]
  

Effects? I had a chat with Uberfish tonight

hi, I understand you have a few concerns about my world spell

[COLOR="#00bfff"]oh hi
I'm at work, so don't be suprised when I get unresponsive all of sudden[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]np
it's late here and it won't be a really long chat
[/COLOR]
:]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]just a headache trying to translate game mechanics into diplospeak
[/COLOR]
true, so let's be brief and to the point

[COLOR="#00ff00"]you are familiar with the mechanics of how it works?
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]the march? kind of, haven't played the elves in ages
I know it uproots forest for 5 turns[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]yeah, it spawns treants on forest (not jungle), it messes up the computer pretty bad
I view it as essentiailly defensive, I'm not going to use it unless someone attacks me because you can't hold ground with it
most I could do is raze a border city or two
[/COLOR]
right, I'll give you a tl;dr version of my diplomatic position

[COLOR="#00ff00"]I assume theres a bunch of forest SW of your capital, cause I saw mainly jungle
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]I don't mind having a close working relationship with you. More, I would like to have a close working relationship with you as it can be pretty profitable for both of us and you have least tools for mid-term aggression
but for me to focus elsewhere I need to have cast iron certanity nothing can screw me up from the blindside, and treants can be a big screw you if used at right time[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]Arendel is pretty flexible with that, I don't intend to sit around and let people build up an unstoppable army of imbalanced units
yes I agree there's a screw you factor, which is why I'm not going to do something stupid like send a settler to that presumed large forest SW of your cap
[/COLOR]
I'd suggest following :

[COLOR="#00ff00"]infact
I'll go so far as to agree not to scout there early, I'll move my scout away
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]- we agree not to send our worldspell units into each other borders till end of time ( or t200 )
- we sign a NAP till around turn 150 ( so I can pillage others and you can tech in peace )[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]haha, to be honest if I find calabim nearby or something I intend to harrass them
[/COLOR]
- I ll give you first dibs on extra silk I have in my territory ( hooked up around t 60, preferably for gold )

gosh, t60, that's a long term plan

- I'll buy any great merchant you get, price to be agreed if you get one

[COLOR="#00ff00"]so far I've found I think 1 wine (off river to boot), 2 reagents and a ivory, I'm not very pleased with the mapmaker
none of these are even in my cap radius
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]- I'll buy leaves spread when you get them
- I'll ofer some of my units for cheap mercenary work when requested
- and you'll get first deer I find if you won't have one by that time
does all this sound good to you?[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]yeah sounds reasonable, what I suggest is I agree not to settle towards you early on (theres jungle anyway)
probably if you put yoru first core city or two in a different direction (or take cultural control of that forest) you'll feel safer with regard to March
that's up to you
[/COLOR]
we can divide the land after we scout it, but I won't settle to the south anyhow, and if we agree to 'no world spell units across the borderr till end of time' I don't mind having you close

[COLOR="#00ff00"]yeah I'm happy to agree to the world spell clause
to be honest you're concerned about that and I'm concerned about the Sons of Asena upgrade rush
that's why I'm keeping such a close eye on your demographics etc
[/COLOR]
that's why NAP till 150, you should have archers everywhere by then

yeah, and hunters long before

:] we've got a deal in that case, let's go hunting pirates and vamps

[COLOR="#00ff00"]yeah Im not too happy flauros was allowed
so OP
[/COLOR]
only thing this game lacks is Keelyn as Balseraph leader, and it would make for a full house :/

[COLOR="#00ff00"]also I moved my starting settler because it was next to a freaking 4 tile lake
= death vs lanun
[/COLOR]
I was wondering what made you walk around for two turns

[COLOR="#00ff00"]and no starting settler bonus, i'm so not pleased with this start at all lol
ok so, I suggest we dont go poking around each others' capitals?
[/COLOR]
sure, I'm mostly scouting north at the moment

[COLOR="#00ff00"]I will leave with this scout to the east
hit the tundra yet
?
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]yes, about 10(?) tiles north from my where your scout is atm
can say for sure, no screenies at hand
lot's of peaks and rivers up there[/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]ah ok, so you have probably space for 1 city between you and tundra, I'm in the same posiiton my end
[/COLOR]
weird setup

[COLOR="#00ff00"]jungle between. I can give you direcetions to make contact if you like, I'm scouting mostly east
will let you know who I spot
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]ok, let's do that
glad we have a deal :][/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]if you make contact from the west side there might be some huts around that way that no one's picked up
[/COLOR]
[COLOR="#00bfff"]there's ocean to my west
I can squeeze a scout NW along the coast, but no high hopes[/COLOR]

what map script is this, I wonder

erebus continents, or tectonics

there seems to be an 'edge of the world'

to many peaks for anything else

[COLOR="#00ff00"]hm I think its probably tectonics. I will have to generate a couple sample maps to get a feel for it. Those random clumps of mountains all overt he place
i'm about 10 tiles south btw.
I'm telling you this because you'll find out soon enough, and you'd probably get more out of building settlers than rushing me anyway
[/COLOR]
hehe, I'm going worker first, so that should tell you a lot already

[COLOR="#00ff00"]well rushing with just warriors is useless in this game
only Clan can really pull that off[/COLOR]

not even them with seven players on board

unless you managed to get a bunch of promos

it's like kamikaze run, you suicide and take someone with you for the sake of it

if you were attacking me I'd expect a bunch of stuff upgraded to axes

[COLOR="#00bfff"]good expectations I can upgrade workers to melee units as well, so watching demos to check for buildup on my side won't help
It's better than drafting, you just need gold :][/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00ff00"]workers, really?
it can't be very efficient though[/COLOR]

yep, worker->warrior 10gp

[COLOR="#00ff00"]ok that's horrendously inefficient
the worker costs more in the first place [/COLOR]

[COLOR="#00bfff"]cut's on upkeep and allows to actually improve stuff in the meantime
and late game I can still do worker->warrior so thats one turn military unit regardles of hammers at hand[/COLOR]

be an unusual city that'd do workers in 1 turn but not warriors I guess

[COLOR="#00bfff"]yeah, but compare times for workers and swordsmen
and it starts making sense
once you get upgrades you can't do warriors anymore[/COLOR]

i'm not terribly familiar with Doviello

aaand, I can do the same with slaves

now that's handy

not many people are, the suck at first glance

so it actually gets better late game

yup

i played one of the scenarios - those instant upgrades along melee line are amazing

and cheap :] anyhow, off to do some actuall work, will talk to you later

yeah, glad we could come to an agreement

I got pretty much everything I'd want at this point of time. Darrel/sunrise, be afraid

[Mist]

Uneventful turn. Hut popped 36 gold bringing me to 86, which is enough for most great people events ( there's one that costs 120, but requires an ice plot in a city BFC to trigger )

Agriculture due in 3t, worker due in 4t. I'll probably run a turn of something else ( Mining? ) to get them at the same time.

Uberfish thinks he figured out the map script ( Lakes ), I agree with him if he thinks about Tectonics->Lakes, normal lakes don't place nearly enough peaks.

[Mist]

Turn 7 started with a pair of clowns popping out of the fog to the north-east. We have found Perpentach ( or rather he has found me, but I do plan a revisit ). For whatever reason he did not send a greeting, so as a proper host I took initiative

[COLOR="DeepSkyBlue"]And who do we have here?

We bid you welcome fools of the Jester, puppets of the Insane One. But do not stay long, we need you to send greetings to your master and a promise of much entertainment to come. We're sure he'll appreciate the fun we have on offer, and who knows, if he rewards us well enough, he may even get to watch it from the sidelines.[/COLOR]

There's nothing like proper hospitality, eh?

Other trivia :

• Serdoa and Uberfish built a warrior last turn
  
• Sciz, Serdoa and Flauros grew capitals to size 2
  
• Illios surprisingly is still at size 1
  

[Mist]

Turn 10

The worker is out. The turn number is nice and round. I met few people to track on graphs...

Yeah, we can do a longer update.

Let's start with the world as the Doviello know it:

Lands of the north

Lands of the south

As you can see I did a proper dotmap this time Scouting to NW, N and NE revealed a plenty of good land. And then got munched on by gryphons, bears and cave denizens. Occupational hazard in FFH2. Settling order will be PinkDot, GoldDot, GreenDot, BlueDot.

The Capital

It's a good spot. Not stunning, there's a lot of peaks and low health cap will be a hindrance for a while, but still good. And I'll be pretty hard to take by surprise. On warrior duty until I get markets or hit size 5 ( might take a while, Rivers of Blood have not been fired yet )

Now let's do some graphs :

Score

Nothing unexpected. Both Uberfish and Serdoa have capitals size two. Elves discovered tier 1 tech last turn. Clowns are still researching so it's safe to assume they are after Callendar.

Power

Elves -

• Started with two scouts (4000)
  
• Built a warrior (7000)
  
• Lost two scouts, built a warrior ( -4000+3000=6000 )
  

Clowns -

• Started warrior,scout (5000)
  
• Got 4000 in one turn. Which is a bit out of ordinary. I'd say that's a warrior and a palisade of a Supplies unit (9000)
  
• Lost a warrior (6000).