So....Gandhi of France Anyone? (Leader/Civ Picking Thread)

[superjm]

1. I went all out for the Pyramids in PBEM38, and it went very poorly (More a reflection on my player skill than their strength as a wonder though).

Yeah, I feel like going for Pyramids is only really useful if you have enough building multipliers and enough choppable forests that you don't compromise the long-term plan for it. And even then you have to determine if those hammers are just not better used for workers/settlers.

That aside, with the start given Pyramids definitely shouldn't be considered at all unless the land around one of the teams suits such a build.

[oledavy]

Chat between me and WK. Lots of discussion of the viability of a stonehenge run. I would upload my saves that I used to test Bismarck and Rameses on start #2, but for whatever reason the forums aren't allowing me to do so.

me: Just ran sims on getting Stonehenge with Bis and Ram, just to see if its feasible in a good time frame.
Got it down to t18 in both cases, but I that's without a teamed civ increasing research costs, figured the increase and their GNP would cancel each other out
WarriorKnight: errr... you may want to wait until I post my comments
t18 seems too fast though, it may cripple us
me: lol, I'm hardly sold on the idea, I just wanted to see how quickly it was possible to do it
WarriorKnight: AFAP doesn't mean practical
anyway, i posted it
me: read, agree for the most part
I think SH may be a little less risky than you think, since we're second in turn order. SMack aren't likely to go for it since they'll be targeting mids for their standard "run specialists -> win" play.
WarriorKnight: no reason why they cant go both if they pick IND
me: They need SPI/IND or EXP/IND to get it on t18, any other combination leaves you a turn behind those two
WarriorKnight: the other reason is that we almost have to start with myst, but we already want agri, mining and fishing
so that means china + fish/myst (spain ugh) or maya (unlikely) + agri/fish (no idea who starts with this, but I know N.America does)
me: Don't think we need to start with fishing honestly, I mean, it would be nice if we did, but it's a cheap tech and we won't be building a WB until t8 at earliest
Unless we don't go worker first in seafood bonanza city
WarriorKnight: think we have to start with worker
me: agree
WarriorKnight: but i dunno, i dont really want to base our picks around getting stonehenge
me: I'm not too big on early wonders
But I think we should at least consider it in light of the "double creative" bonus
with our position in the turn order and the right leader, we could gurantee it, presuming everyone has mirrored starts
WarriorKnight: ok, but whos the right leader?
lets assume we miss huayna
me: Bismarck or Ram for our supporting leader
WarriorKnight: EXP and SPI aren't that great for teamwork though
IMP and PHI would be better
me: Ram could be good in that spot, I think, SPI lends itself to running specialists to take advantage of that +13 food bonus. If we're talking SPI vs. PHI, we definitely definitely want SPI imho
IMP would probably be better though
as far as helping settler spam cities anyway
Idk, I think there will be better choices than IMP though, it's good, but on Immortal/Large, not that good
We'll be limited by commerce, not foodhammers
WarriorKnight: why is SPI better then PHI? you really need to be midgame before we can begin mass civic switching, and PHI helps getting that first scientist
well, maybe we could go for the darius and early CoL via oracle
me: PHI helps with getting that first GP fast, but after that really tails off in usefulness. Otherwise it's main use is a super-fast Oxford. Since this will be our non-fin civ, it's not as useful there.
WarriorKnight: isnt that what our supporter wants to do? help our powerhouse get going ASAP
me: SPI Mid-game versatility > Academy 13 turns earlier, I think. That 13 turns of boosted commerce that early I don't think will win it for us.
WarriorKnight: hmmm, i dunno
anyway, we dont need to decide right now
need to see what the first 2 teams pick
me: No, still need to see what LAME and 4H Club pick
/crosspost
WarriorKnight: we could get mansa and this discussion is for nothing
me: Very true. In general though, I would prefer we have goals vs. vague plan to expand.
WarriorKnight: cant really make goals until we know what our pick is, but yeah
me: Think Ram and Hannibal going for stonehenge :D You know you love gimmicks like that
lol
WarriorKnight: heh
hmmm, what civs starts with fishing? i know england does (and they might be worthwhile)
yeah, england looks like the best civ that starts with fishing
me: hmmm, America, Native Americans, Carthage, England, Holland, Greece, Japan, Rome, Portugal, Spain, Vikings
Still not sure we need to start with fishing....but if we did
WarriorKnight: america, greece, japan, portugal, vikings crap
me: We could always try Rome again
WarriorKnight: heh, maybe
8 civs and india/inca banned...
although UB is worthless
me: it would be a one-tricky pony if we got it
basically planting a big sign in our lands:
STAY THE FUCK AWAY - PRAETS
WarriorKnight: would prefer egypt or zulu if we wanted to go in that direction
me: Agreed, Egypt would be my first choice for civs
WarriorKnight: dunno about first, but its def top4
me: Ideally, we'd probably like one early and one mid/late UU
WarriorKnight: not really concerned about UU's unless it's early
me: lol, get Rome and Byzantium, panic everyone into ancient rushing us
WarriorKnight: lol
me: eh, Redcoats/Musketeers/Phracts could all be potentially game-changing in the right hands later on
WarriorKnight: not redcoats, they don't have much advantage against grenadiers
learned that in PBEM25v
others maybe, but byz/france aren't that great civs otherwise
me: ammendum to redcoats:
*when you're not fighting the odd guy who researches Military Science

Eh, Hippodromes aren't bad...
Salons are though
WarriorKnight: byz has what? wheel/myst
me: Yeah
WarriorKnight: fairly horrible
me: wheel is most expensive starting tech, myst would give us shot at SH and an early religion, which will be harder to get in AW
WarriorKnight: yeah, but we'd almost have to take china for mining/agri, and china also sucks
me: For starting techs, def want: mining, wheel, agriculture
hunting - for fast AH
mys - SH or religion
WarriorKnight: or oracle
me: and that
fish for ability to work 2/0/2 tiles right off the bat and early WB
no real advantage otherwise
WarriorKnight: hunting shaves what? 1t of AH?
not that crucial since start 2 has a wheat to farm
myst depends on wether we want to rush SH/Oracle
me: definitely need Agri and Mining if nothing else
WarriorKnight: wheel is most expendable crucial tech
yep
me: allows us to research BW right off the bat
both first workers farm rice/wheat
then move to chop WB/SH and Worker/???
WarriorKnight: need to sim
me: Yeah, could sub out wheel, would just have to be prepared to work from a beaker deficit, and have a longer path to pottery
cottages really important
for early commerce to power expansion
though those gems will offset the need a little
WarriorKnight: hmm, if we want to start with myst then we either need china + ? or a myst/mining civ
that means either maya or korea
doubt we'll get maya, korea kinda sucks but will need to go on powerhouse
something to think about if we want to start with myst
anyway, i gtg, lunch time
me: Alrighty, take care, hopefully Shoot can come by and we can get a third opinion.
I'll post this chat in the thread
WarriorKnight: sure
cya
me: later!

[oledavy]

64 x 40 = 2,560
2,560/4 = 640 tiles (including water) per team
640/2 = 320 tiles (including water) per civ

[WarriorKnight]

64 x 40 = 2,560
2,560/4 = 640 tiles (including water) per team
640/2 = 320 tiles (including water) per civ

Kinda useless since we don't know how much of that is water and we probably won't give both civs the same amount of land.

[oledavy]

64 x 40 = 2,560
2,560/4 = 640 tiles (including water) per team
640/2 = 320 tiles (including water) per civ

Kinda useless since we don't know how much of that is water and we probably won't give both civs the same amount of land.

Dammit WK, don't you know when I'm just trying to inflate the postcount with mostly useless data

[WarriorKnight]

64 x 40 = 2,560
2,560/4 = 640 tiles (including water) per team
640/2 = 320 tiles (including water) per civ

Kinda useless since we don't know how much of that is water and we probably won't give both civs the same amount of land.

Dammit WK, don't you know when I'm just trying to inflate the postcount with mostly useless data

Don't you know I'm also inflating postcount by shooting down useless data.

[superjm]

You'll know how much of that is land the moment you get to look at the scoreboard, no?

[WarriorKnight]

You'll know how much of that is land the moment you get to look at the scoreboard, no?

Well yeah, but since we can't exactly do that yet so we might as well figure out what we can (assuming, of course, it isn't useless :P).

[Brian Shanahan]

Holy hand-grenades, Batman! I missed this thread opening up.


Reporting for duty as ordered, sirs!

[oledavy]

Okay, with LAME's pick of Darius, we're guaranteed HC or Mansa if we want them. Neither one has as much synergy as I'd like, but they're both solid picks in their own right. At any rate, we'll probably be up to pick sometime this evening. @Shoot and WK, do you guys want to schedule a group chat in gmail tonight to discuss our picks? I should be available starting around 2100 EST or so. Superjm, Brian, and Ceil, you're all welcome to join if you're free and want to have a say. I already have Ceil's email; Brian and Superjm, if you don't have WK or Shoot's, you can add me: davidharris93@gmail.com