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Sullla Wrote:On a decision as big as ultra-early war, we all wanted to see what you guys would do, without affecting the decision in any way. At least, that's the way I approached the situation. 
It was good, as the slightest comment could have swung the balance one way or another, so the danger of spoiler info was significant. Thanks again for the map, and for the start
I just noticed that our thread is top in replies at the moment which is nice
Dreylin and I had a chat this morning that he will summarize in a bit. Before that I wanted to say that we both got more convinced that sunrise was bluffing. We conjectured that what sunrise did was to build a second warrior while going for polytheism, then he *moved* this warrior and started a worker while researching agriculture. This is reinforced by the fact that he was returning a warrior to the capital. Of course it is possible that it was his first warrior, and he had an almost finished warrior in the queue.
Kalin
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As kalin said we chatted this morning about sunrise, war - lost opportunities and in the future - and the benefits of peace.
kalin and I are turning into a Yin & Yang on the team - or a Hawk and a Dove in other parlance. Generally in our discussions I take the more peaceful viewpoint, whereas he explores the more aggressive options, and it seems to be working quite well so far.
Anyway the summary right now is for us to keep our options open as much as possible in the next 10-20turns. Several key things should happen in that time to help us make decisions:
1) Meet some more neighbours, with one of two outcomes:
a) they are peaceful souls who'd like to let us expand in peace
b) Ruff's Mongol Praets show up and we have "fun" dealing with them
2) Location of Copper (both ours and sunrise's) and ease of settling will let us know how quickly we can become aggressive, and with what consequences.
3) Shape of the land to sunrise's West (our North) will determine how much space there is for both civs, and whether anyone else will be competing for the land.
Once we have a better idea of some of these things, we will assess whether or not we want to pursue an early war with Vultures leading the way. If not, we would probably looking for a long-term arrangement with sunrise, at least long enough to get past his UU - though with Elephants, we are placed reasonably to counter horse-based units up to currassiers.
We may well send our second Scout Northwards with the intent of clearing the land around us, while our warrior explores as much as possible of sunrise's surrounding area, and then heads back Westward - to ensure we know the placement of his Copper & Horse supplies.
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Had a chat with sunrise early this afternoon; I will include the full text, but to summarise:
1) sunrise has arranged a rendezvous with regoarrarr/Dantski's scouting unit.
2) there is a 1-tile spot where contact can occur
3) his borders will expand to cover that spot on the same turn that their unit can see it
4) the only way we can therefore meet them would be to declare war on sunrise for a limited period
5) in return for facilitating contact, sunrise requests a 40t NAP to allow short-term peaceful building
Quote:sunrise089: hi Dreylin, I have some news
me: Hey there
good, I hope 
sunrise089: Actually, not so good, though I'm not the source of the bad news
me: rego's contact unit...?
deceased?
sunrise089: Regoarrarr tells me he can be on the contact tile on T22
same turn I plan to be there. However I think my borders will block the tile that very turn 
me: but your borders will have popped?
bother
I guess we'll head that way anyway
The only option I can see is if we declared war on you - so we could move through your borders
sunrise089: right - you can actually make the tile 1 turn early I think, but rego can't
me: probably not your preferred option though!
sunrise089: if you declared, how long until the game allows peace?
me: I think immediately
sunrise089: I could live with a war dec...we dont have any trade routes or anything, right?
me: not yet
sunrise089: However, I have a trade offer in exchange for the war dec
I'd like to request an early short-term NAP
me: (of course we couldn't stand on th same tile while at war)
sunrise089: we dont need any auto-renewal clause or anything to complicate it if you don't want
me: How long do you see as short-term?
kalin believes in keeping our options open
sunrise089: a 40-turn NAP would seem reasonable to me...I'd just like to not have to worry about having an archer everywhere I worker is going to move and at every potential city spot
me: Sure, understandable
let me see what kalin says
sunrise089: but I understand if you want to keep the options open, I'm just not sure we gain a lot by a military buildup
ok, no real hurry
me: Well 3-turns
sunrise089: three turns?
me: before your borders expand
sunrise089: right, gotcha
me: You did make it conditional, right?
(seems a fair conditon to me)
sunrise089: it's a provisional conditional, subject to a counter-offer
me: OK, we'll confer and should let you know later today
sunrise089: but yes, in realpolitik terms I gain nothing by aranging a meeting other than points for being helpful and cooperative, and if we can't settle on a short term NAP then it probably makes sense to be more cautious than cooperative
me: Oh certainly
I totally agree
sunrise089: anyways, I'm off to a late lunch...I'll keep the window open, but I'll be AFK for 30 minutes or so
me: OK, I don't expect to speak to kalin until later,so let's leave it as-is and I'll get in touch when we've conferred.
So other than my natural tendency to Dove-hood, I don't think a 40t NAP would significantly alter our potential for an early Vulture assault, while meeting another civ is certainly beneficial.
As I see it, we have the following:
10t left on BW
5-10t hooking up Copper (assuming at Capital - longer if requires second city)
10t building 4+ Vultures
15-20t walking to sunrise's capital
which is already >40t.
Anyway, as I said to sunrise, I'll wait to hear from kalin and we'll consider the offer.
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Official proposal received from sunrise:
Quote:Dear members of the League,
A few proposals for you to ponder, all of which we discussed but which I thought might be better in email draft form:
1) I would be happy to arrange a summit between your civ and regoarrarr+Danski's.
2) In order to do so I propose you declare war on me and walk onto the hill tile on my side of the channel, which I will leave unoccupied for you.
3) In exange I'd like a 40-turn NAP, or a NAP to T60. Feel free to propose any refinements.
4) At some point I'd like to consider trading for a settler. A price below my cost in hammers and above your own may benefit both teams.
All the best!
-sunrise
I think that we should be good-to-go with this (see my previous anticipated timeline), and would propose we agree on t60 as the final year of the NAP - just so we're all sure of the date when attacks could commence.
July 13th, 2009, 14:56
(This post was last modified: July 13th, 2009, 15:27 by kalin.)
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Quick answer: let's take it! That is NAP until T60.
Dreylin your analysis is good, and it would definitely take us around 40t to get some army and move it in position.
EDIT: Also, when accepting his offer let's hint at the idea of a longer peace agreement. Something along the lines:
"The league members are discussing a proposal for a longer lasting peace treaty proposal between our civilizations, but in the interest of not blocking the game, we'll take the current agreement and hope to propose something else before the end of the current NAP."
Dreylin, do you think that would tie us too much? I'd like to convey a non-committal peace proposal that will either relax him to allow us to strike or build trust for a future peaceful coexistence.
If we go for peace we can start talking settler deals, as that would be mutually beneficial.
K
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I moved the scout E-SE revealing some land that looks like islands, and no new resources. Moved the warrior at capital SW on the forested hill revealing coast and no seafood. I am a bit nervous about that so maybe we should move him back, we are now 3 turns away from the capital
I haven't touched the warrior by sunrise as I wasn't sure where I was supposed to. I also made a couple of notes on the map, Dreylin please review and comment.
Kalin
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I will not be able to look until later - I am heading out for the evening after work - so if you get a chance to log in again, go ahead and finish the moves and end turn.
The Warrior outside sunrise's capital needs to move 3SE to reach the contact tile.
Capital Warrior should be OK to move NW and clear that area of coast, though I think that our borders pop next turn, so we should get a good view of the area and an additional buffer against marauders. I think that if we keep him a maximum of 4tiles away, we'll be fine.
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Dreylin Wrote:I will not be able to look until later - I am heading out for the evening after work - so if you get a chance to log in again, go ahead and finish the moves and end turn.
The Warrior outside sunrise's capital needs to move 3SE to reach the contact tile.
Capital Warrior should be OK to move NW and clear that area of coast, though I think that our borders pop next turn, so we should get a good view of the area and an additional buffer against marauders. I think that if we keep him a maximum of 4tiles away, we'll be fine.
Good, then I'll move the warrior by sunrise SE and end the turn. By the way, we should name our troops Should be fun and easier to refer to them. I propose we each pick names alternatively, unless you have some idea for a theme If not I suggest we name the warrior by sunrise "Primo".
EDIT: Moved warrior SE and ended turn. Our borders will expand in 6 turns on turn 25. I realized that if the borders of sunrise expand our warrior will get kicked out. When should we/he declare war?
Kalin
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kalin Wrote:By the way, we should name our troops Should be fun and easier to refer to them. I propose we each pick names alternatively, unless you have some idea for a theme If not I suggest we name the warrior by sunrise "Primo".
OK, that would mean I get to name the Scout ... "Scouting Bob", your turn. 
Am drafting the letter now - was going to reveal more about where we are located & suggest his trends his explorer North.
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Dreylin Wrote:OK, that would mean I get to name the Scout ... "Scouting Bob", your turn.
Tyler Durden for the second warrior
Kalin
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