RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Morgan]

Manic, have you been logged in all day? 8 hours according to Civstats.

End turn if your done chap.

[Maniac Marshall]

Sorry. I was actively doing stuff for about 4 hours of that, then I fell asleep and forgot to log out. I did finish the turn.

Game is paused until tonite for JANK. If you get time later, log in and make sure I haven't screwed anything up.

[RefSteel]

OK, Chimeee and Thomas, the workers at Thundara need to head back NOW, or the plan at HV is going to be impossible.

T136 move W-NW to the desert and CANCEL.

I assume you mean for them to put a turn apiece into a ROAD on that tile (and then both CANCEL orders of course.) Would it be better for them to move thus:

T136 move 2W-3NW to a roaded river plains tile, farm, and CANCEL.

T137 move 2SE-1NE to the FP and Farm.

T138 Farm

T139 Farm


If so, Koivu could help as well:

T136 Move 1N to the same river plains tile as the other two, Farm, and CANCEL.

T137 move 2SE-1NE to the FP and Farm

T138 move 1W to the plains and road (complete)

T139 (can head over to the Thundara region or do whatever else is thought best)


What do you think?

[RefSteel]

Regarding the Chariots, I THINK they are all needed where they are. We are trying to bust all possible barb spawning.

Any chance of intentionally leaving an(other) area that can spawn barbs to "train" some of our units?

Temminck is showing 8 turn to the Uni. In 3 turns it should be down to double whip. I'd suggest pulling the trigger on the Uni at that point. After that, it should start on a grocer. It does have a little wiggle room because we built a duct there, but you can be sure it will need the grocer eventually.

Sounds like a great plan to me!

FS should make another missionary, because we need to get religion into Thundara (Green Dot), then it desperately needs a grocer. IMO, it needs this more than the Uni, though it wants one of those post haste too.

This sounds right.

Are we serious about making this city into a hammers city?

I'm not sure. We really need to go over all our cities' long-term plans/prospects. I wouldn't turn FS into a hammers-first city to the extent of watermilling grassland though. We're FIN and that's a great commerce city. Many of its hammers come post-dike, at which point it becomes an even stronger hybrid.


Tao Missionary: At this point, it might be a better idea to send him to Fierias, per Maniac's original suggestion. Another alternative might be to save him for a new city where he'll be the first missionary to arrive (thereby guaranteeing he doesn't fail to spread his faith).


More on Kilrah and theaters later, hopefully.

[RefSteel]

First up, on Theaters: Remember that, for the Globe, it doesn't matter how soon we get them. The key is to have 8 of them completed by turn 150. Doesn't matter if we have 7 built going into turn 149, or just one or two, with the rest completing in the 149-150 interturn. I'll post more below.

Next up: General thoughts on the health cap. I'm posting this separately so as to save on explaining my assumptions in the city-by-city post below.

To figure the impact of growing past the health cap, it is NOT correct to just subtract one food from the "new" tile you'll be working - at least, not when you're in slavery, with more happy space than health space. The cost of growing into unhealth instead of whipping away a pop unit is -1 food to the WORST TILE your city is working. In other words, if Pride Rock is working two plains farms, two grass farms, and some hills, and grows into unhealth onto a new grass farm, it is NOT gaining a "nothing" 2 food tile: It is giving up a 30-base-hammer whip so that it can work a 1/1/1 plains farm. Had we whipped the city, it could STILL work that new grassland farm for its full 3 food instead of one of the plains farms; thus the tile we're losing is NOT the grassland farm, but whatever happens to be the worst tile the city is working. (Trading one food for one hammer is a bad bargain, except when specifically needed to complete a specific project - such as U Sankore - until you hit size 20. That's a big part of the reason we try to spend the minimum number of turns building workers and settlers.)

As a result, it is (virtually) never good to grow above the health cap unless (as was true of Temminck at one point, but no longer) ALL your tiles are so good that they're worth working even at -1 food. There can be exceptions for special circumstances, of course, but those are rare. One or two turns aren't that big a deal, and of course it's not worth burning a bunch of real-life time to avoid the loss of a few extra in-game food, but if it's trivial to avoid, then it should be avoided.

[RefSteel]

[EDIT: Updated again.]

Newish Plan for Fierias
(slightly modified and extended)

Also updated in the summary post above
(a couple pages back)
So as to minimize confusion.



Let me know if anything looks wrong.
(Or if it should be building different stuff.)

[RefSteel]

City review without benefit of actual current data on the cities:

Note that all notes are speaking as though it is currently Turn 136. If it's still T135 (due to reload) we shouldn't change ANYTHING until the turn rolls (since whatever way it is now was presumably the way we left it when the turn rolled originally).

Note as well that the following are my suggestions only!!!

[EDIT: Multiple changes below to bring it up to date.]

Fierias: Check the events log every turn. If U Sankore is built out from under us someplace, tip your cap to whoever it was and switch Fierias to a Hindu Missionary, making sure not to complete him in one turn (i.e. don't work any plains farms). (I'm pretty sure the game will let us build a wonder for a turn after it's already been built. We don't want to do this, in spite of the fail cash.) Assuming this doesn't happen, just make sure U Sankore is still due on Turn 140. This turn (T136) Fierias should be at size 12. Starting NEXT turn (T137) we should switch off the plains farm to the fourth cottage; the game should correctly indicate that this will not delay U Sankore. (NOTE THAT THE SPREADSHEET HAS BEEN UPDATED! You may have to refresh the page to see the new one.) Fierias will have no problem getting a theater in time to allow the Globe.

Pride Rock: Hinduism has arrived, so we should have no trouble finishing a grocer, a temple, a Worker, and a Theater (at least) before turn 150.

Temminck: I'd follow Maniac's plan: University - whip for 2 pop when possible - overflow to Grocer. It might take some fancy footwork to get the theater in by turn 150, but it can be done; we can detail it closer to the time.

Feng Shui: It's unhealthy now, right? It just finished its missionary, right? If so, and doing this wouldn't result in a total of more than 80 hammers in the Missionary, I would WHIP the Hindu missionary for 1 pop NEXT turn, speeding up (that missionary perhaps and certainly) the next build and stopping the waste of food there. After the new missionary, a grocer would likely be best. I suppose we'll have to put one of the theaters here, but I'd hold off until we get a better idea of what our newer cities can do.

Kilrah: It just finished a Monastery to ~the exact hammer, I assume, and is currently unhealthy, and using an engineer. It should KEEP the engineer hired, start work on a temple, and whip it next turn (for 2 pop, I assume; if it's just 1, that's still worth it) which means you'll probably have to manually re-hire the engineer (please do so). Thereafter, it should hire a priest AS WELL AS the engineer, and probably build a Grocer, which can be whipped if the city grows into unhealth again. (Again re-hiring the priest and engineer.) I don't like the idea of building a theater here unless we think it will eventually be important for the happy. If we want one here at all though, definitely get it before turn 150, so this place can concentrate on real units once Rifling comes in.

Hukawng Valley: It'll have its theater soon regardless. The Settler for Savannah will complete here on turn 142. It wants to put hammers into the Globe on turn 150, and should COMPLETE the Globe on turn 158, having also completed a bunch of infrastructure and a handful of units. In addition to its floodplain farm, it will need: A grassland farm by turn 143; a plains farm by turn 146; and another plains farm by turn 147. It would also be nice to get its remaining grasslands cottaged eventually, but that isn't vital, and our workers are going to be busy.

Ornata: I agree with Maniac: First finish the Forge (via the whip, I assume). After that, I would whip a temple and a theater, not necessarily (but probably) in that order.

Red Dwarf: Its granary is finished, right? I assume it's getting a forge now, mostly by some combination of chopping and the whip. I would also seek to get a theater here by turn 150, preferably after a temple.

Smithsonian Park: Its future is planned out in detail already for at least the next month of real time. Unfortunately, it won't be able to build a theater in time for the globe. (It has its own National Wonder going).

Thundara: I'm guessing it's putting 1hpt into culture right now. To be honest, that's probably fine, though I haven't crunched the numbers. It should of course put hammers into a granary later and whip it as soon as it hits size 4 (it doesn't have any forests, right?) and then build a theater immediately. (I think it can actually just put the granary overflow into the theater and 1-pop whip it the very next turn if extreme measures are deemed necessary.) Floodplain farms would speed things up nicely.

Savannah: This city will be found on turn 143 or 144 (depending on whether we can spare 5 worker turns to road there in advance - so I assume 144). Depending on the number of worker turns it gets, it should be able to chop a granary and a theater before turn 150.


That's all I've got for now. Have a great weekend, both of you!

(And if any mythical beasts happen to be lurking about, you have a great weekend too!)

[Maniac Marshall]

I assume you mean for them to put a turn apiece into a ROAD on that tile (and then both CANCEL orders of course.) Would it be better for them to move thus:

T136 move 2W-3NW to a roaded river plains tile, farm, and CANCEL.

T137 move 2SE-1NE to the FP and Farm.

T138 Farm

T139 Farm


If so, Koivu could help as well:

T136 Move 1N to the same river plains tile as the other two, Farm, and CANCEL.

T137 move 2SE-1NE to the FP and Farm

T138 move 1W to the plains and road (complete)

T139 (can head over to the Thundara region or do whatever else is thought best)


What do you think?

Lets make that even better!

The tile Koivu is standing on has 1 turn into a road and 2 into a farm already, and thus:

Koivu acts BEFORE the other two workers in the next 2 turns and:

T136: Roads (complete)

T137: Moves 2E, Roads (complete)

T138: Moves 2W, Farms (complete)

T139: Moves 3W Farms.

Meanwhile, the other two:

T136: Wait for Koivu to road, then move 2W-2NW-W to where Koivu stands and Farm.

T137: Wait for Koivu to (move 2E) finish a road, then move 3E to the FP and Farm

T138: Farm

T139: Farm (with Koivu's help) complete.

[Maniac Marshall]

City review without benefit of actual current data on the cities:

Note that all notes are speaking as though it is currently Turn 136. If it's still T135 (due to reload) we shouldn't change ANYTHING until the turn rolls (since whatever way it is now was presumably the way we left it when the turn rolled originally).

Note as well that the following are my suggestions only!!!

Fierias: Check the events log every turn. If U Sankore is built out from under us someplace, tip your cap to whoever it was and switch Fierias to a Hindu Missionary, making sure not to complete him in one turn (i.e. don't work any plains farms). (I'm pretty sure the game will let us build a wonder for a turn after it's already been built. We don't want to do this, in spite of the fail cash.) Assuming this doesn't happen, just make sure U Sankore is still due on Turn 140. This turn (T136) Fierias should be at size 12. Starting NEXT turn (T137) we should switch off the plains farm to the grassland farm; the game should correctly indicate that this will not delay U Sankore. (NOTE THAT THIS PLAN HAS BEEN UPDATED FROM THE PREVIOUS SPREADSHEET!) Fierias will have no problem getting a theater in time to allow the Globe.

Odds of U of S getting built anywhere else are slim to none I think, although 16% of the world IS Buddhist, so perhaps someone else has built enough temples to make it worth their while.

Pride Rock: It sounds like we're getting Hinduism here soon - maybe even as soon as next turn? If that's the case, and we have no hammers invested in anything, I'd put a turn into another Cat, then wait for the missionary, and start a Hindu Temple next turn, assuming successful spread. The following turn, I'd whip the temple (2 pop) and then overflow onto a grocer. We should be able to finish the grocer, the Cat, and a Theater before turn 150.

It's getting it THIS turn if you're calling T136 this turn. Well, assuming the missionary doesn't fail anyhow. That would be very bad. Assuming it doesn't fail, it can start a building THIS turn at 24hpt, with 15 hammers overflow. Which means that... If it builds a grocer on T136 (18+24 = 42) and 137 (42+23 = 66), it should have 66 hammers into a grocer, and can then double whip it on T138. Then, on T139, it can put a turn into a temple (66 + 24 + 90 -150 = 30, then another 2 turns (140 and 141) 48+ 30 = 78, whip the temple with near maximum overflow on T142 into a 1 turn worker (T143), and then "never" whip again... At that point, the theater (and cat's as well) would be a 2 turn build, and could be done whenever we want. How's that?

Have I mentioned how much this city has disappointed me? If you'd told me a few months back this city would be making all of 20 hpt at this point, I'd have said you were nuts.

Temminck: I'd follow Maniac's plan: University - whip for 2 pop when possible - overflow to Grocer. It might take some fancy footwork to get the theater in by turn 150, but it can be done; we can detail it closer to the time.

Nothing to add.

Feng Shui: It's unhealthy now, right? It's due to finish its missionary next turn, right? If it has less than 33 hammers invested, I would WHIP the missionary for 1 pop right now, ensuring the NEXT missionary pops out right away and we quit wasting food there. After the two missionaries, a grocer would likely be best, though it may get interrupted later on for another missionary (for Savannah). I suppose we'll have to put one of the theaters here, but I'd hold off until we get a better idea of what our newer cities can do.

It's going to finish the missionary "this" turn with 2 hammers overflow. If you like, I can put a turn into the grocer on T136 and TRIPPLE whip it on T137...

Kilrah: It just finished a Monastery to ~the exact hammer, I assume, and is currently unhealthy, and using an engineer. It should KEEP the engineer hired, start work on a temple, and whip it next turn (for 2 pop, I assume; if it's just 1, that's still worth it) which means you'll probably have to manually re-hire the engineer (please do so). Thereafter, it should hire a priest AS WELL AS the engineer, and probably build a Grocer, which can be whipped if the city grows into unhealth again. (Again re-hiring the priest and engineer.) I don't like the idea of building a theater here unless we think it will eventually be important for the happy. If we want one here at all though, definitely get it before turn 150, so this place can concentrate on real units once Rifling comes in.

I think it's better to just put 2 turns into the grocer, then double whip it. We can overflow into a temple and build it in probably 2 turns.

I'm not totally sold on running all these specialists in this city. If there is anywhere that SHOULD be working plains hill mines, it's this place. Every turn we build a unit and work those specialists instead of 2 mines, that's either 10 or 11 hammers lost (not sure about the rounding). That's over 250 hammers in the long run. Are you totally sure it's worth that?

Hukawng Valley: It'll have its theater soon regardless. The Settler for Savannah will complete here on turn 142. It wants to put hammers into the Globe on turn 150, and should COMPLETE the Globe on turn 158, having also completed a bunch of infrastructure and a handful of units. In addition to its floodplain farm, it will need: A grassland farm by turn 143; a plains farm by turn 146; and another plains farm by turn 147. It would also be nice to get its remaining grasslands cottaged eventually, but that isn't vital, and our workers are going to be busy.

The plains farms wont be a problem. The grassland one is a pain in the ass to do, because the workers will barely have time to finish the FP farm before then, and our new FP city really needs their attention, and I was expecting to be able to send 2 of them over there right away =/

Ornata: I agree with Maniac: First finish the Forge (via the whip, I assume). After that, I would whip a temple and a theater, not necessarily (but probably) in that order.

Red Dwarf: Its granary is finished, right? I assume it's getting a forge now, mostly by some combination of chopping and the whip. I would also seek to get a theater here by turn 150, preferably after a temple.

It's grainery is done, it's working on a forge to whip. I'm planing on irrigating it up pretty much and using the whip, then cottaging over practically everything.

Smithsonian Park: Its future is planned out in detail already for at least the next month of real time. Unfortunately, it won't be able to build a theater in time for the globe. (It has its own National Wonder going).

Reminds me, we're going to need to reacquire some marble... Mali is using the one we were using to build Taj Mahal. I think they should be done in time to give it back however...

Thundara: I'm guessing it's putting 1hpt into culture right now. To be honest, that's probably fine, though I haven't crunched the numbers. It should of course put hammers into a granary later and whip it as soon as it hits size 4 (it doesn't have any forests, right?) and then build a theater immediately. (I think it can actually just put the granary overflow into the theater and 1-pop whip it the very next turn if extreme measures are deemed necessary.) Floodplain farms would speed things up nicely.

It put 1 hammer into a grainery because I THOUGHT we'd be able to whip it before the hammer expired, now, not so sure, though I think it still can... Yes, it's currently putting 1hpt into culture. Keep in mind this city DESPERATELY needs health, especially as it's not on a river. Perhaps we should have put it on a river even if it pulled in more desert... eh, probably not... It's going to go unhealthy at size FOUR, though the grainery will buy us time till size 7, the forge will set us back to size 6. It needs to build grainery, forge, duct, theater, and grocer probably in that order.

Savannah: This city will be found on turn 143 or 144 (depending on whether we can spare 5 worker turns to road there in advance). If Feng Shui can build it a Hindu Missionary, it should be able to chop a granary and a theater before turn 150.


That's all I've got for now. Have a great weekend, both of you!

Sounds good. You too.

(And if any mythical beasts happen to be lurking about, you have a great weekend too!)[/quote]

[Maniac Marshall]

I plan to post a cities only report in the next 2 days so we can talk about our cities.