[SPOILERS] The Peaceful Centaur: a Study in Possibility

[Mardoc]

Since the early game hasn't gone particularly well, another option is to beeline Infernal Pact and switch to the Infernals. A plains heavy map is perfect for Fallow leaders; and civs stunted by Mistforms and a lack of food are ripe for demonic invasion. I suspect Sacrifice the Weak will be a popular choice on this map, so you'll have plenty of opportunities to collect manes. I wonder if anyone else has had the same idea? It would be a strong play, especially for the Lanun. What do you think? It would mean abandoning the Kuriotates, and doing exactly the opposite of your original game plans. Tempted?

Hmm. Not especially, but I'll think about it. Hyborem without much starting tech isn't *that* good. On the other hand, I hear rumors that Lanun are going CoE for an early Vitalize Gibbon, which means they would probably not be direct competition, but would still be producing Manable units. Ichabod's #2 in GNP, and I know he's going Kilmorph. And you've got a point that people will have to choose between feeding me with Sac/Weak and being weak themselves. And we're one of the civs definitely in contention for Hyborem. And Veil units don't synergize with the centaurs all that well.

Ok, the more I talk, the more tempting a switch sounds, really.

Well...what would it take, from here? Philosophy (300 beakers/1.2 for prereq = 250), Way of the Wicked (280 beakers/1.2 for prereq = 234), Knowledge of the Ether (360 beakers/1.2 prereq = 300), Corruption of Spirit (801), Infernal Pact (1201/1.2 prereq = 1001). A total of 2586 beakers, our current rate is 45 and unlikely to improve all that far, which comes out at 58 turns. We might speed that up with Deinos' founding. And actually we would considerably speed it up by finishing Writing and getting some libraries built - we only have 251 beakers left on Writing.

Edit: what was I thinking? We're about to swap to Financial - that will add at least 4 raw commerce to Podagros, bringing our raw commerce to 30; add library to that for another 7 and academy still adds 15...and villages will keep growing - even without a second city we're likely to bump our raw research rate here up at least to 57ish just by our previous plans, in the next 5-10 turns. Even with Writing involved, that would cut the total time to about 50 turns. And that doesn't take into account anything we can get from Deinos, like a Gold tile and another Elder Council, trade route...

For that matter, if we went this route, that would leave the world with 4 neutral and 1 evil civ, only the Elohim perhaps remaining Good. And there's no religions founded yet, so AV would spread pretty darn quickly - and there's lots of barbarians and wilderness, so expecting a high general casualty rate is reasonable.

Hmm. I think I like it. I don't want to commit today, but I'm going to keep thinking about this. This might be the one game in which Hyborem can actually shine. Which leaves the main remaining question as this: what else do we want to pick up on a beeline thataway? Writing seems a gimme, would actually shorten the path. Maybe up to Bronze Working so Hyborem can build swords with his free Training Yards (and so we can mine the gold at Deinos for an extra 10 commerce/turn)?

In other news, Dereptus finished this turn, still no Mistform, still lots of barbarians (who killed a warrior this turn before I cleaned up). The warrior who died was caught torturing prisoners, adding 2 to the AC and subtracting 1 XP from him before he died; the other option, disbanding him, would have let that barb live and pillage, I think.

Probably the next tech will be ...um. Writing is cheap, only 5 turns, and we'd probably get one turn of doubled production, anyway. It makes sense if we want to go for Hyborem, certainly, to get our beaker production supercharged. On the other hand, refounding Deinos ought to be a priority, right? And I would really like to have some better units for clearing barbs with - although I suppose Hunters could do the job.

I suppose that's the debate, then. Is the next focus Writing & Hunters for stability and fast teching, or is it churning out what we need to get Deinos off the ground? Either way the decision does actually need to come soon. I'll keep thinking about this; if you've got any more to add, please do so.

[Azoth]

I would argue that the Infernals are strongest in the early game, before their starting bonuses can be overcome with advanced technology. Let's review the finer points of Infernal civilization:

- Infernal citizens do not consume food and Infernal cities do not grow.
- Infernal cities ignore health and happiness. Accordingly, they cannot build Granaries and Smokehouses. A number of other buildings and technologies are also useless to them, especially Public Baths and Sanitation.
- Infernal cities start with 3 population; the Ashen Veil religion; and a free Elder Council, Training Yard, Obsidian Gate, Forge, and Mage Guild.
- The Infernal Palace supplies Iron, Fire Mana, and Entropy Mana. It also adds +50% production (which stacks with God-King) and +1 research, commerce, and culture to state religion buildings (ie: Temples of the Veil.)
- Hyborem is Spiritual, Summoner, and Barbarian. Spiritual gives free Mobility and Potency promotions to Ritualists (the most likely source of collateral) and Mages (if they are upgraded from Savants.) Savant-Mages have great synergy with Summoner; they can take Combat promotions up to level 4, then hopefully pick up free Death promotions from nodes when upgraded.
- Infernal UUs include Hellhounds (Hunters with 3 movement), Imps (Adepts with no unit support costs), Death Knights, and Balors.

With that in mind, Bronze Working is probably the least useful military technology for the Infernals. Their units do not need Bronze when they have Iron, their cities pick up Training Yards for free, and they prefer faster units that can keep up with Mobility Ritualits and Mages. (Infernal units all have the Demon racial promotion and cannot be Hasted.) Strength 8/6 Iron Nightmare-Chariots, Strength 7 Nightmare-Archers, or Strength 7 Rangers are all valid choices. Chariots come quickly with Trade and Construction; Horse Archers need Archery and Stirrups; and Rangers require Animal Handling, which can be bulbed with the Grimoire. And, of course, Ritualists come at Priesthood and Mages at Sorcery. If you want something else to pick up, anything along those lines would be much more valuable than Bronze Working. But I'd probably want to switch to the Infernals as soon as possible. Pacifism and 3 scientists = A very quick Academy.

Bottom line: I think a sandbox is in order.

[Mardoc]

Unfortunately, between all the games you see in my signature and my new job, I don't see sandboxing in my future.

I started on Writing and a Hunting Lodge. We'll see what happens next, I suppose. I would really like to get contact with Selrahc and get some idea if he's in contention for the Infernals or not.

[Mardoc]

Really?



Also, note that Elohim score. I think I know where the Mistform is right now.

[NobleHelium]

That mistform is going to be the game's peacekeeper.

[Mardoc]

That mistform is going to be the game's peacekeeper.

The peace of the grave!

[Thoth]

Hands up anyone who wants to go around randomly popping dungeons.

:hat:

Mistforms are fun.

(for the lurkers)

[Irgy]

Hey, I've still been reading but a lot less active I must confess. My personal intuition is that switching to infernals is suicide. Even without Mercurian cheesiness you have a good civ in Kuriotates. If you're going to be holed up in your capital you've definately picked the right civ to do it with.

With all the setbacks and detours, and, actually, probably even without them, it's just too hard to get infernals into the game early enough for them to be a serious contender. They start with some good units, but you're never going to take a city with them that's defended by a competant human, and by the time your development catches up to even a basic level everyone else will be all over you. I do admit that if ever there was a map to do it this is it, but I still think you're better off sticking with what you've got. If you had some hopeless civ with a decent tech rate but no future I'd say go for it, but I don't think that's the case at all, Mistform or not.

Feel free to go back and read my detailed opinions on Hyborem though. I remember I wrote something of an essay on it earlier in this thread but told you not to read it because you were ded-lurking in FFHPBEM5. That's obviously not important any more now.

A hawk-scouted centaur suprise attack on one of your crippled neighbours sounds like a much more effective strategy to me.

[Mardoc]

Hey, Irgy, glad to see you around again, even briefly.

I'll admit, my intuition was telling me the same thing as yours, but Azoth raises some strong points, which leaves me still mostly in the undecided camp. What I *am* confident about is that we'll want Sacrifice the Weak if we stay Kuriotates, so the decision about to swap or not to swap can be put off for a while. Who knows? Maybe someone will take it out of our hands.

[Mardoc]

Writing came in, the Hawk finished, so I started on a Library. We should have 2 turns of progress before losing Philo, which will actually almost finish it! After that, we'll refound Deinos, scout some, and decide on the next goal, either attacking Jkaen or Selrahc, or finding and founding a third city.

Looked around with the Hawk, and see no Mistform, just normal orcs and goblins still incoming. Given the preponderance of these, after some debate I started us on Horseback Riding, so we can have Centaurs to challenge them with. Probably the next tech will be KoTE.