New (Maybe Greens) PBEM?

[BRickAstley]

Yeah, I'm not too knowledgeable about the whole Pyramid ban, I'd be willing to say I don't see much of a need for it.

[regoarrarr]

What about Religious and/or Diplo victory?

[Commodore]

I'd honestly strongly recommend either banning the 'mids *and* Fin, or unbanning both (maybe tossing out HC/Mansa/Wille/Pacal).

[Lewwyn]

I really disagree. Mids are powerful, yes, but they are expensive. Super expensive. That kind of investment deserves to be a boost. The time you spend building the mids could have been spent building workers/settler or an army to take an opponent's city. My point is that there's a huge risk that must be taken. If you fail to get it, you have wasted time and hammers. Its not like FIN where you simply have the trait. Mids are earned. It's a race, and some people will place a higher value on them then others. And even if you get the mids, you've wasted time in development that others have not. You can't just start banning everything that might give someone an advantage. Traits and Civs are different since they are picked from the start and can't be influenced by opponents in game.

Now, GLH is one wonder I'd consider banning on water heavy maps. It doesn't have as high a cost as the Pyramids and thus isn't as balanced IMO as the Pyramids are. I'd also say ban the Cristo since its pretty obscene.

You can ban the mids if you want, but I wanted to make a case for competition. The mids are not a "win" button.

[Gaspar]

Now, GLH is one wonder I'd consider banning on water heavy maps. It doesn't have as high a cost as the Pyramids and thus isn't as balanced IMO as the Pyramids are. I'd also say ban the Cristo since its pretty obscene.

While I don't particularly want to get into this quagmire, I think you'll find that the costs of GLH and Mids are usually pretty much the same since GLH has no doubler and requires a lighthouse, while you rarely see Pyramids fall early unless there is stone near the start. They're both pretty expensive for where they come into the game, but the costs are far all intents equivalent. The win rate of teams landing GLH isn't anything special anyway.

Honestly, as soon as you start banning stuff something else jumps to the head of the list. My main problem with the no-Fin games is they so often devolve into a race for the early economy wonders - GLH, Pyramids and Colossus (which is won 95% of the time by whoever lands Oracle.) Its not so much that its unfair as it is that its boring.

Anyway, not trying to tell you what you should ban or not, just my two cents.

[slowcheetah]

What about Religious and/or Diplo victory?

Completely forgot about this, would definitely like it banned myself.

While I don't particularly want to get into this quagmire, I think you'll find that the costs of GLH and Mids are usually pretty much the same since GLH has no doubler and requires a lighthouse, while you rarely see Pyramids fall early unless there is stone near the start. They're both pretty expensive for where they come into the game, but the costs are far all intents equivalent. The win rate of teams landing GLH isn't anything special anyway.

I agree the costs are similar. I also think the win rate of the pyramids might be slightly skewed by players of the calibre of Sevenspirits and mackoti often being the ones building them lately.

[SevenSpirits]

What a controversial topic.

In my view EXP and FIN are at about the same power level (the highest one), at least on the maps we've tended to play on recently, and EXP may even be better. People have been kneejerk-banning FIN since I got here (and I thought this was fair at first, but I've gotten better over time and so now I have opinions about things) and leaving EXP alone which is really too bad IMO. If I were playing I would vote for: you can only have at most one of EXP, FIN, INDIA, INCA. I think that wouldn't be more unfair than most setups and pretty fun. Being any of those things is FUN!!

I don't think any early wonders need banning, certainly not Pyramids. Pyramids NEVER get built as early as it's possible to build them (i.e. beeline the necessary tech, masonry, and go for it ASAP). All wonder races are essentially secret auctions, about who is willing to give up the most to give up a wonder, and if people are holding back then the wonder is not overpowered. There's only a problem if people literally don't have enough liquidity to bid as much as they'd like to bid, a situation the GLH sometimes approaches.

[Catwalk]

What a controversial topic.

In my view EXP and FIN are at about the same power level (the highest one), at least on the maps we've tended to play on recently, and EXP may even be better. People have been kneejerk-banning FIN since I got here (and I thought this was fair at first, but I've gotten better over time and so now I have opinions about things) and leaving EXP alone which is really too bad IMO. If I were playing I would vote for: you can only have at most one of EXP, FIN, INDIA, INCA. I think that wouldn't be more unfair than most setups and pretty fun. Being any of those things is FUN!!

I don't think any early wonders need banning, certainly not Pyramids. Pyramids NEVER get built as early as it's possible to build them (i.e. beeline the necessary tech, masonry, and go for it ASAP). All wonder races are essentially secret auctions, about who is willing to give up the most to give up a wonder, and if people are holding back then the wonder is not overpowered. There's only a problem if people literally don't have enough liquidity to bid as much as they'd like to bid, a situation the GLH sometimes approaches.

I'll put a vote on that suggestion, sounds good to me. I definitely prefer restrictions to outright bans. Do we have any kind of consensus on wonder bans? One thing I like about Pyramids and GLH is that they improve some of the less used traits, ORG and PHI.

[slowcheetah]

I'd be willing to try out Seven's suggestion as well.
As far as wonder banning goes, I don't feel the need to ban any wonders, unless we are on an 'islands' map in which case the Great Lighthouse is probably better off being banned.

What does everyone else think about banning religious/diplomatic victory?

[Catwalk]

Agree with banning diplo and religious victories, but leaving AP. Note that this would allow other resolutions to be passed. I suppose we're cool with that?