[SPOILERS] Lurkers Lurk Thirty-Three Fools

[Azoth]

The Black Sword triumphs again.

Impressive game.

Yep. And a completely different game, too. The last time we had a look at the Doviello capital, it had just one National Wonder (Dereptus) and ZERO buildings. What TBS could have done with Mahala...

Asshole thinks he's a Big Man just because his stupid palace gives him like a billion power. I'll wipe him out if I ever see him, but it doesn't appear that he spawned anywhere near me.

...And ten turns later, Dis is the best defended city in the world, with its legions of Manes and Iron Axemen, so much so that a war declaration from Hyborem is the only thing that has TBS worried! Beats me why he didn't dispatch the Infernals BEFORE going on a city razing spree, though... I guess he really didn't want his raiding parties delayed for even a single turn.

[pocketbeetle]

Agree impressive is the word to use here.

What particularly struck me was the Bob strike; TBS unloaded the galleys, mobility promoted + hasted his units, then summoned the Law II Hosts to gain 4 range.
Add in galley movement and circumnav bonus, that's potentially something like a 7-8 range strike in total, half of it inland without raiders.
Not used fully here, but could be -very- nasty.

You can write a lot about just that one screenshot above.

• Ritualists and Mages only 1 movement (obviously pre-promoted Mob earlier) so can't attack any cities, although Ritualist can apply RoF to one.
  
• Leaves 1 Host and 3 SoA vs 2 warriors + a catapult, ie allowing for one lost combat.
  
• Was interested to know what the Host's odds were on Triss Merigold (it won).
  Base 5 str + 40% (C1 + Empower 2) = 7 vs fortified warrior 3 str + 25% +25% + 20% culture = 5.1 so around ~ 75-80% odds?
  Sadly no hill or river bonuses.
  
• Hosts are Disciple units, so Aggressive applies.
  
• Units have all been pre-mutated, one of them has Amphibious to help with Geralt's river.
  
• How did TBS know that force would be sufficient to raze those cities? Note the Metamagic 1 promo on one of the mages.

Following on from that last bulletpoint, I think the mistake that most of the players have made (and TBS hasn't) is lack of scouting/ enemy unit knowledge from turn to turn.
Dave reached Hawks, and then decided to attack after scouting the TBS frontline and deciding he was militarily weak (quite the opposite, 50 SoA alone).

The cursor is on his garrison in Grey Wind. The backline cities have one beastman each, and there are several shamans and a savant running around. I've suspected for a while that a good bit of TBS's power comes from population, and it's looking like that's the case. He's apparently going for a mage army, summoning Einherjars (he has Law mana in addition to the Body, Chaos, and Earth from the palace).

Bob on the other hand was at least aware that the forces he could see on his frontlines were only a small part of TBS's power, and conscious of the possibility of being boated:

You can also see a TBS galley- that unit has 6 moves, and I was really worried it might be part of an alpha-strike to raze my coastal cities, but I guess he's just scouting with it. This did persuade me to start construction on a pair of Triremes, to block easy coastal access to my vulnerable core.

Unsure what happened to those trireme plans, but I think a better response from him (obviously with my 100% lurker hindsight) would be to ask himself "can I see 6 tiles in every direction from my cities?"
Lacking both hawks and floating eyes, he was unable to see the galleys in the fog and it cost him.
I recognise part of his counter-argument may be to point out that he was doing a "deep vampire beeline", but ultimately when the Doviello have Sorcery for mages and you don't even have adepts, despite having the free gift of a Metamagic node at your capital...

And that just leaves Superjim who, I'm almost certainly being unfair to, but the tone of his nonreports seem to imply that he's playing the Elohim in his own little sanctuaried sandbox.


Some of the player's complaints about the map have felt unjustified, so hope you're ignoring them Qqq.
I would have enjoyed playing this map. Host summoning barbs sounds hilarious (after you've beaten them ofc).


Also, Dave has apparently reached KotE (slow as Sheiam?) but I still can't see any Planar Gates in his screenshots.

It just feels to me like he's gone about the Sheaim in the wrong way.
Their major calling card (apart from one trick Pyre Zombies) is that they get free production via Planar Gates.
Get that building, get free units, then spend more time and hammers on infra (which gets you more free units).
Additionally, they get to jump an entire tech tier above every other civ since Mobius witches are mages that are essentially 'unlocked' at KotE.
Suspect a Mobius witch or two (fireballs + spectres alone from palace mana) would be really useful around about now. He would be getting them given the way the AC counter has jumped and is about to overtop 50.

Carnivals, inns, harbours, lighthouses in cities with 4-5 water tiles on the other hand -all built with Slavery- (no forges yet ofc since the FFH2 tech cost for that is pretty high) gets you nothing except high happy cap cities with a bunch of whip anger and an extra cottage worth of trade income. Might be worth it in the long run, but with a Doviello in the game...
His tech rate at least should be strong, but it appears he's going deep on Honour. Plus if the focus is on economy then why no markets?
Slight irony with the Sheaim being hit by Blight - that capital is going to starve down to 10 at least.

Anyway, not trying to be too hard on Dave (heaven knows he's hard enough on himself), and I'm aware that the Planar Gate is horribly expensive hammerwise and that inns are reduced in EITB. However something just doesn't seem right.



Overall, suspect the epitaph for this game will read: "The Doviello out-teched and out-expanded us all" - and not all of that can be blamed on the barbarians, given that there is another Barb civ in the game.

[Qgqqqqq]

Definitely ignoring map complaints. They can't see the map and I can - for example Bobs bad scouting leading him to claim he was low on nodes when he really wasn't (the Angel ones are all equidistant between players).
Note to Azoth to remember that while Mahala *might* also have gained the same results, Charadon and his warring traits are how he has mastered this game (holding off Dave while hitting Tholal, and then keeping a large enough force to discourage them both while digesting him) so you can't just say he'd be better off under Mahala.
PB, galley attacks are even more powerful than that! I believe with promos they can be 6mp sans circumnavigation, if you factor in the air 1 spell too. And this is without Lanun, raiders, moroi, hippus or any of that. People never seem to understand just how powerful navy is in FFH

[HidingKneel]

This game and FFH IX clearly demonstrate that Charadon is OP and needs to be nerfed.

[Molach]

I believe Black Charadon could steamroll both opponents with ease - Dave was talking about the amurite worldspell maybe having an effect, but ...will it matter much? I must admit I have little experience with huge late-game magic-users in MP, but I fail to see how Amurites will make much headway, even if they will have exclusive use of magic for some turns now.

No haste, no blinding light, no more einherjar...but will it matter much with the amount of ...everything the Doviello has now?

Partly asking because Dave has been ready to concede for a week now, not sure if superjim is thinking he /they have a chance or not. Black C is probably enjoying conquering for now, so I'm extremely wary of asking superjim what plan he has to win or what he thinks his chances are - in case he is all set to fight it out.

[Bobchillingworth]

Poor Jim hasn't even bordered anyone until recently, he deserves to share in at least a little action before the game ends

[Azoth]

Note to Azoth to remember that while Mahala *might* also have gained the same results, Charadon and his warring traits are how he has mastered this game (holding off Dave while hitting Tholal, and then keeping a large enough force to discourage them both while digesting him) so you can't just say he'd be better off under Mahala.

He's done well with Charadon, no doubt, but Mahala would surely have been stronger. With TBS' sprawling empire, half price Settlers would have freed up a LOT more hammers for military. And double yield from pillaging would have done wonders for his economy - both early, when he pillaged scattered improvements in the wild, and during the elven war. In fact, since researching Bronze Working and settling the distant Copper were the two components of his rush plan, TBS could have saved quite a few turns (or assembled a much larger force) with Mahala. After the war, half price Harbours would have helped all his coastal cities turn a profit faster. And even now, the +3 health from Expansive would add +3 food in every city, negating the health malus from Sacrifice the Weak. About the only thing Charadon is better at is training Mages; but then with Mahala, TBS would probably have gone for Iron Working before Sorcery, and with Haste Shamans plus Commando/Mobility Iron Battlemasters, I don't think his military capability would have suffered much at all.

No haste, no blinding light, no more einherjar...but will it matter much with the amount of ...everything the Doviello has now?

Yeah, I'm not sure what hope Jim had for victory. I wouldn't have thought war with TBS was ever the right call. You just can't stand up to an empire three times your size that's running Sacrifice the Weak/Conquest, magic or no magic. He probably should have tried sneaking a Tower victory. Arcane Lore is the last tech you need for that, since you can grab Strength of Will with the ToD. And Jim has had that for a while now; Govannon is an expensive hero (over half the cost of a lesser Tower) and he was built some time ago. After that, he could have saved all his gold for Wizard upgrades and rushbuying Towers. If the Doviello invaded, THEN it would be time to spring Arcane Lacuna and defend as best as possible. Of course, TBS had a backup plan, Religious Victory, and after the vampires went down he had something like 70% of the world's population all by himself. He could have probably ignored Jim entirely. (Or, since they had Open Borders right up until the war, loaded his super fast Galleys with Acolytes Savants, and launched a sneak religious invasion of Amurite cities. That would have been fun to watch.)

[Bobchillingworth]

No way in hell Jim could have held out long enough to steal a Tower win, regardless of his WS. Absolutely no way maybe 20 Wizards could beat back the hordes of highly-promoted T3 and 4 units TBS could bring to bear. I'm not even sure Jim has enough nodes for the Tower- but he certainly couldn't hold them, if he does. I think he just wants to go out swinging, and good on him for that.



Not sure about Mahala vs. Charadon. You bring up a lot of good points RE: saved hammers & gold, but Charadon gets significantly better odds and saves hammers in his own way by allowing you to ignore barb defenses. Plus Charismatic means +1 cottage or whatever to work per city, which does make a difference early on.

[Yell0w]

Note to Azoth to remember that while Mahala *might* also have gained the same results, Charadon and his warring traits are how he has mastered this game (holding off Dave while hitting Tholal, and then keeping a large enough force to discourage them both while digesting him) so you can't just say he'd be better off under Mahala.

He's done well with Charadon, no doubt, but Mahala would surely have been stronger. With TBS' sprawling empire, half price Settlers would have freed up a LOT more hammers for military. And double yield from pillaging would have done wonders for his economy - both early, when he pillaged scattered improvements in the wild, and during the elven war. In fact, since researching Bronze Working and settling the distant Copper were the two components of his rush plan, TBS could have saved quite a few turns (or assembled a much larger force) with Mahala. After the war, half price Harbours would have helped all his coastal cities turn a profit faster. And even now, the +3 health from Expansive would add +3 food in every city, negating the health malus from Sacrifice the Weak. About the only thing Charadon is better at is training Mages; but then with Mahala, TBS would probably have gone for Iron Working before Sorcery, and with Haste Shamans plus Commando/Mobility Iron Battlemasters, I don't think his military capability would have suffered much at all.

Er, Charadon is BARBARIAN. That makes a HUGE difference early, and it did make a huge difference in this game. I don't think he could have done better with Mahala, sure she's better on paper, but BAR has done so much for TBS here, he knows how to use it. Also aggressive is something Mahala doesn't have, and it is especially powerful combined with CHA, getting 3 promos on a unit is so easy with that combination, Mahala just can't do that. And promotions are really powerful in EitB/FFH. I don't think he could have run a farmers gambit like he did without Bar, and I don't think his units would have been half as terrifying without AGG/CHA. Right now Mahala would be the better leader, but for the first 75-100 turns, no way!

[Ellimist]

Er, Charadon is BARBARIAN. That makes a HUGE difference early, and it did make a huge difference in this game. I don't think he could have done better with Mahala, sure she's better on paper, but BAR has done so much for TBS here, he knows how to use it. Also aggressive is something Mahala doesn't have, and it is especially powerful combined with CHA, getting 3 promos on a unit is so easy with that combination, Mahala just can't do that. And promotions are really powerful in EitB/FFH. I don't think he could have run a farmers gambit like he did without Bar, and I don't think his units would have been half as terrifying without AGG/CHA. Right now Mahala would be the better leader, but for the first 75-100 turns, no way!

This.

100% yes.