RBP3 [SPOILERS] - Friendly Kittens (Ragnar of Maya)

[Maniac Marshall]

No problem and no offense taken at all. I was just attempting to explain why we've arrived at the point we're at in the condition we are in.

I can play the next couple of turns because the entire tech and trading state of diplomacy is changing really quickly right now. Aparently we're no longer the banking civ, we're going to be researching Libralism for our alliance now. You might want to read the recent email threads that have a lot of replies to catch up on what's going on there.

I will attempt to catch you up on the diplomatic state of things in the next couple of days.

As of next tuesday (possibly sooner), you'll probably be the primary turnplayer. I'll log on once a day and answer email's and any questions you have about diplomacy while I'm on vacation.

Input is a very good thing, especially on the military situation.

[Maniac Marshall]

Turn 114 played. Still waiting to see if England comes through with the other 25g. Won't be surprised if they don't =/

In the good news department, we got a free religion spread to FS. Not Hinduism, but Buddhism, so there's one for our free religion drafting happiness campaign for later.

I should be able to play T 115 after work tomorrow. I'm off friday so maybe Morgan and I can have a chat about things then.

We ARE starting to fall behind in cities. We're going to HAVE to start thinking seriously about making THREE settlers between turn 122 and 130 IMO.

Also, when do you think we should start running specialists in HV? I know we have a forge there, and the micro plan you (Ref) made has a monastery showing up there durring the micro plan. I would think we want to whip a library there asap as well. At that point, I'd say start the specialists.

[Morgan]

I shall stand ready MM.

Have England a history of not delivering on promises? Who are we best friends with? Within or out of the PAT.

[Maniac Marshall]

England are usually very reliable, unless Cynheard is not around. I wasn't sure if their money was all going to Carthage (it was). Will try to post up a diplomatic overview tomorrow. We actually have no enemies atm.

[RefSteel]

Morgan - let me echo Maniac in saying that any input, questions, and criticism you have is exceedingly welcome! Any help you wish to provide, from extending (or changing!) the microplan to diplomacy to playing the turns would be terrific. Let us know if you have any specific questions. For instance:

Have England a history of not delivering on promises? Who are we best friends with? Within or out of the PAT.

England joined CAN way back in the early game in spite of agreements with Babylon and Mali, but we're not holding a grudge over that. When they failed to play their turn fully on Sunday, one thing they neglected to do was send us gold we needed to complete engineering on time, which caused the microplan to collapse because I forgot which measures I'd built in to deal with such an eventuality. Maniac has recovered us nicely though, thank goodness. Other than that, England's been fine.

Our best friends, in or out of PAT, are the Babylonians (played mostly by Kyan, with some help from Whosit and Twinkletoes). It isn't even close. We could give you a history of our civs' relations, but basically we want to be allied with Babylon until the game ends, and we trust them to the end of the world and back.

Our other really good friends are Mali and Byzantium (who are out of PAT). England's mostly all right. Our relationship with India is extremely complex, but they're more or less longish-term friends, we think, probably. (Maniac would probably be more definite, but I find it hard to trust them in-game at all.) We should have very good relations with Portugal (not in PAT), but time zone (and just plain time) issues have kept us from talking much. Carthage (in PAT, unlike Portugal and India) is decent; they're tight with Krill.

Krill is Krill is Krill is Krill. If you've ever read any of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, you know who Lord Havelock Vetinari is. Krill has found a character he can roleplay without having to change his playstyle. If you don't know Discworld, try to sort of substitute in Machiavelli (or better, the Medicis for whom eh worked), but with more of an emphasis on actual political machinations and ruthless success than on the modern idea of "Machiavelli = EVILLLLL!!!!!" I like Krill, and I believe he's a decently reliable ally, but I think he (or really just circumstances) are going to force us to choose between him and Byzantium, and that's probably when the political fireworks begin. As a civ, we're already thinking about (and working toward success in) the post-PAT era, but I have no idea how that's going to go ... in no small part because I don't want to betray any of our fellow PAT teams - and Krill is no exception.

There's more, but it's late, and I have to go, and Maniac will do a better job of explaining stuff anyway. Our diplomacy this game has really been his realm anyway; at least, if I were playing alone, I'd have done things very differently (and maybe been eliminated already, but hey, that's the way it goes).

Finally: I've updated the microplan on my first page post, but it's just a copy-paste job from Maniac's, so go with the original, whoever's playing.

[RefSteel]

In the good news department, we got a free religion spread to FS. Not Hinduism, but Buddhism, so there's one for our free religion drafting happiness campaign for later.

Y'know, if we ask Krill for another missionary, of a type of his choice, he might oblige. You never know. (Admittedly, most of his hammers will be going into units, so I doubt he'll have one to spare....)

We ARE starting to fall behind in cities. We're going to HAVE to start thinking seriously about making THREE settlers between turn 122 and 130 IMO.

Okay. I'm probably not going to be able to create a microplan for that period, which is unfortunate since I actually had (what I thought were) some great ideas for Ornata and Smithsonian. I'll try to describe them in as much detail as I know them, but I may not have time.....

Also, when do you think we should start running specialists in HV? I know we have a forge there, and the micro plan you (Ref) made has a monastery showing up there durring the micro plan. I would think we want to whip a library there asap as well. At that point, I'd say start the specialists.

Um ... never? Plus or minus an eternity? Maybe this was a mistake, but my plan to run specialists there ended right around the time we finalized our border agreement with Ruff. This is the city Morgan was talking about: Farmed floodplains, a forge, and nothing else but a couple of desert hills. I'd like to get some more culture in there, but apart from that, my plan for that city was to whip such infrastructure as it needs (Monastery counts, both for culture and for AP hammers - barracks are also needed, for instance) and then whip units until it can start drafting them instead. Of course, it'll be a while before our NE city (Smithsonian) will be up and running, so it might be a good idea to run specialists *somewhere* in the meantime. If anyone has any suggestions ... don't feel like you need my approval for them!

[Maniac Marshall]

Y'know, if we ask Krill for another missionary, of a type of his choice, he might oblige. You never know. (Admittedly, most of his hammers will be going into units, so I doubt he'll have one to spare....)

Already have done - He's a little busy. He's expecting to get hit by something like 30+ HA in the next couple of turns, so...

Have asked Cynheard for one as well. Not going to worry about that till we've spread the 2 religions we've got.

TBH, though, by the time we're set up to draft rifles we might have infantry the way this game is going...

Okay. I'm probably not going to be able to create a microplan for that period, which is unfortunate since I actually had (what I thought were) some great ideas for Ornata and Smithsonian. I'll try to describe them in as much detail as I know them, but I may not have time.....

Which one is Ornata again? Blue Dot?

Um ... never? Plus or minus an eternity? Maybe this was a mistake, but my plan to run specialists there ended right around the time we finalized our border agreement with Ruff. This is the city Morgan was talking about: Farmed floodplains, a forge, and nothing else but a couple of desert hills. I'd like to get some more culture in there, but apart from that, my plan for that city was to whip such infrastructure as it needs (Monastery counts, both for culture and for AP hammers - barracks are also needed, for instance) and then whip units until it can start drafting them instead. Of course, it'll be a while before our NE city (Smithsonian) will be up and running, so it might be a good idea to run specialists *somewhere* in the meantime. If anyone has any suggestions ... don't feel like you need my approval for them!

I'd like to run a mixed bad there for one person. BTW, since AP buildings give back the hammers, and we're building lots of monasteries and ?temples? what do you think about building the University of Sankore? It a wonder that probably gets ignored. If we lose it, we get gold, which is very useful to this alliance.

[Maniac Marshall]

NOTE: Ref, if you could update this with NAP's and stuff and we should keep this up to date from now on.

Diplomatic Overview
-------------------
PAT -I'm only listing the people who are actually doing stuff on these teams
------

BABYLON (Kyan, Whosit) - PAT's Philosophical sometimes 3rd techer. Kyan is also very active in relations with certian CUDDLE members. These guys are our best friends in the entire game. Not even close. I trust them 100% completely. If there were only 3 civs left in the game, I'd trust them to work with us over anyone else in the game, and that's how we feel about them as well. Our biggest lament is that we didn't get them as a direct neighbor. If we can't win, we want them to win.

Treaty: We have a "permanent" MPP in regards to Byzantium only. Otherwise, none as it simply isn't needed.

MALI (Swiss, displasted) - PAT's other sometimes 3rd techer. We like these guys... They're very buisnesslike, but nice enough. I trust them about 93%. They'd never sneak attack us, but they certinally wouldn't be above not telling us the entire truth, or using us for their own ends to a reasonable degree.

Treaty: Other than the landsplit agreement what gives us settling rights for Savannah and "green dot", I don't think we have one.

CARTHAGE (ShootTheMoon, Mr. Nice Guy) - One of the world's top 2 techers (#1 at the moment till we get our academy on T119) We like these guys a lot too. We had a rather difficult time coming to a landsplit agreement with them, and I thought they were going to be... for lack of a better word... jerks about it, but it turns out they were not. I think they were just pushing us to see if we'd cave in, and when we didn't, they backed off. Other than that, we've had no problems with them, and in fact, they've been very helpful. We're currently being gifted their spare furs.

Treaty: Landsplit agreement which gives us settling rights to Smithsonian Park, Red River Valley, Lyons, and (Ref)Steel Claws.

ENGLAND (Cynheard, Antisocialmunky) - PAT's primary funder and military strongman. Also one of the internal leaders. We're pretty friendly with them. I enjoy talking to him a great deal about things other than Civ. Cynheard has been very helpful with ideas and stratedgy. I trust him 100%... for now. We're far too useful for him for him to want to do anything that would hurt us. I think of all PAT memebers, he's the one most likely to win the game.

Treaty: We have a 10 turn autorenewing NAP

EGYPT (Krill ne Havelock) - PAT's secondary funder and currently the world leader in pike production. The nominal leader of PAT. I think we trust him. He's been very friendly towards us and seems to like us a good deal in both game terms and in terms of somone interesting to talk to. Of course, when it comes time to win the game, all bets are off with him. No problem there. Knowing what to expect.

Treaty: I THINK we have a 10 turn autorenewing NAP

CUDDLE
----------

BYZANTIUM (Bobchillingworth, Sleeping Moogle)- OK, this is going to be a long entry... We really like these guys, but they are a major enigma. Why they had to make this so damn hard and not join PAT, I have no idea. They seem fixated in an illogical hatred of Krill. They have, at times been a little difficult to deal with, not in terms of us ever having boarder tensions or anything, but, well, it's just a bit of a philosophy thing. they've been looking for somone to fight for ages (Krill being the top of their list) whereas we're more interested in peaceful building given our location and land availability for us. They've been very helpful neighbors, and I'd never turn on them unless absolutely required to protect Kyan or Mali.

Treaty - Land Share agreement allowing us to settle the Marble/Wheat/Silks city. Otherwise, none surprisingly.

INDIA - (Darrell, Regoarrarr, Sunrise, soooooo+/- some o's) - Durrning the early years of the game, we declared war on them and razed a single city at first contact in a surprise attack. We hated doing it, but our group at the time (Sumeria, Rome, Byzantium, Babylon, and Mali) felt it was our only hope of keeping Sumeria alive long enough to get Alphabet. In hindsight... it worked... barely. After that eventy, you would have expected them to hold a grudge against us, but they actually havent. I really regret that we are not on the same side of this game as them.

Treaty - Ten turn autorenewing NAP. We can void it if they attack Mali or Babylon, They can void if we attack Byz or Aztecs. Also: Landsplit agreement. We get blue dot, they get a gold resource from us in perpetuity. In retrospect, they migh have fleeced us a bit here, mainly because of the landsplit we made with Aztecs.

AZTECS - (Ruff_Hi) - As close as these guys are, they are the last civ we met! Hard to tell what to make of them. Ruff seemed extremely paranoid of us at first, but now seems ok. He's not the best at answering emails in a manner that is easy to comprened. I trust him to do what he says, though not necessarily trust that he has no hostile intentions. However, his early war with Inca pretty much crippled him.

Treaty - We have a ten turn autorenewing NAP with him. We can void it if they attack Mali or Babylon. They can void it if we attack India. We have a landsplit agreement with him that enagled us to found blue dot, HV, and (I THINK) green dot. We'll have to firm that up shortly.

INCA - (Jowy, Athelete, Kalin, Nakor) - I trust these guys about as much as any other pathalogical lying cheating bastards that turn around and attack people with gifted military that I know. Which is to say, not at all. There is a possibility they might try to poach the area around green dot. If so, we may be joinging Mali in a war against them. Nobody likes these guys, and I have a hard time seeing anyone in CUDDLE leaping to their defense honestly.

Treaty - Seriously? These guys could be trusted to honor a treaty? (Well, MAYBE Jowy could be if he were playing alone)

ROME - (Sandover) - These guys were allies early on. They were a very active team early, but now seem to have faded into virtual non existance. I think they've lost all interest in the game. Square Leg for sure is no longer playing (he posted to Ruff's thread a while back) and I don't think Scooter is either. They haven't posted to their thread in 6 weeks. I can't say as I blame them. It's hard to keep optomistic when you've been made virtually irrelevant.

We got fishing and iron working from them, allowing us to do Metal Casting, which was the big break that got people to see us as something other than irrelevant, and it got us back into the game. As such, we gave them Metal Casting when we researched it, even though we didn't have to as they were no longer in our alliance at that point. Wow, long entry for an "irrelevant" civ.

Treaty - None that I know of.

PORTUGAL - (Mukha) - I like these guys. However, I don't really trust them, or wouldn't if we shared a boarder. They definitely liked to Rome like crazy in a manner similar to what aparently happened to France They gave us Sailing early on. We gave them Metal Casting later on, even though by then we were in a different alliacne. They offered to make up the beaker difference. We told them not to worry about it hoping that the good will of this would count for something later...

Treaty - We have a 15 turn autorenewing NAP with them.

HRE - (Ilios, dazedroyalty) - Not much to say about them. Such limited talk as we had with them was ended long ago really.

Treaty - None that I know of

Ottomans(Warrior Knight, Sockboy, ad hoc) - Very little contact with this civ. What contact we had was not inclined to make me think it would be a civ I would be excited to work with, although they certinally seem to know what they are doing.

Treaty - None that I know of

[RefSteel]

TBH, though, by the time we're set up to draft rifles we might have infantry the way this game is going...

You left out "mechanized".

(Kidding. I think.)

Which one is Ornata again? Blue Dot?

Yup.

I'd like to run a mixed bad there for one person.

Fine with me. As long as I'm not the one planning around it.

BTW, since AP buildings give back the hammers, and we're building lots of monasteries and ?temples? what do you think about building the University of Sankore? It a wonder that probably gets ignored. If we lose it, we get gold, which is very useful to this alliance.

Sounds great if we have any place to build it. I saw the e-mail where you're talking about building it at the capital. If so, we should probably whip the settler for Smithsonian Park (Orange Dot) to overflow into it. (I think.) We'd have to scrounge up a missionary from somewhere for Smithsonian too. It would also be nice to have some workers to send up there. Maniac and I disagree about the urgency of getting new cities (in comparison with e.g. more workers) but I'm happy to defer to him and leave the planning to others, as I won't have time to build a complete plan anyway. I realize now that my plans for Ornata and Smithsonian Park are pretty much irrelevant, since the plan for every city depends on every other. Everything depends on the number of workers we have available for each city, and when they become available, which in turn depends on when improvements are needed/completed at other cities, which depends on city growth, which depends....

[RefSteel]

The diplo stuff looks correct. On Krill/Egypt ("Havelock," as mentioned above, is just Krill's name for himself in this game) and our agreements with him, reposting a chat I quoted ages ago in this thread:

me: I guess we should probably wait to look in-game before talking specifics since I don't remember for sure what's been researched so far, but...
...do you think we agree in principle to trading techs, making up differences by spreading faith, and say an auto-renewing NAP (no set expiration, 10t cooldown)?
(adds a "can" to "think we can agree in princip;e")
Krill: that works for me
have you been talking with England?
me: Yup
Krill: well
sufficed to say that I think we can work together.
me: Thanks for suggesting we poke them. You were of course correct.
Krill: I've explored a bit south towards you, but not all that much
but I can't see us arguing over land between us, I have the north to expand into, and still need to get my economy in order first...