[SPOILERS] - scooter's thread

[WarriorKnight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3KBuQHHK...re=related

That'll keep you going for a while.

Venezuelan beaver cheese would get my vote, but that 15 char limit gets in the way a bit.

[scooter]

Thanks guys! I'll check out that youtube video tonight when i get the chance. More from Serdoa, a long email and then a quick add-on:

Hi scooter,

that deal about not coming near his borders for the first 20 turns is unfortunate as his borders popped at turn 13 the second time, meaning no one of us can look into his capital till we take it. Ah well, nothing to change on that right now.

Regarding the idea of a faked dispute, I like it.

Besides that I would have a request scooter, which will take some work on your part. I will not be able to get my warrior down to you, as I will have to scout Dazeds northern border for his settler. But I would like to know which tiles we have down there to find the best route for our armies and make sure that we both arrive at the right time. Therefore, if it is not too much work, can you give me information on the tiles east to west from your caps 2nd ring to Dazeds border? I think 5 tiles in width from the coast to our east are sufficient. Basically the information I need to draw the map for my own (we really should have allowed map trading before paper, we do basically the same but instead of screenshots we write it down...). If there are 5 tiles between your caps 2nd ring to his 3rd as it is for me, then you would need to send me the information of 25 tiles. Basically:

Grass|Grass|PH|FGH|Coast

and so on. Well and if you use abbreviations (like FGH for forested Grass Hill) I would need an explanation if not self-explanatory

Or do you think that that would be against the spirit of the rule of no map-trading? I am not sure what the sense of that rule really was but I think it was not about preventing something like that. And as TT has told me where in the fog fish is, we basically already done the same as this one, only on a smaller scale. No clue - we could also post that in our threads and see what the lurkers think. I am surely biased, so probably not the right one to make the decision. Let me know your thoughts.

Different topic: What is Dazed doing? What I know:

Build Order: Worker, Warrior, Warrior -> now on Worker or Settler (Worker should be finished EOT16 with 2 overflow, Settler EOT 18 or 19 - he should have 62/65 in it at EOT18 but maybe I am somewhere wrong and he will have got the 3 hammers somewhere)

Military: 3 Warriors (1 inital, 2 build - 1 is 5N,1NW of his cap (Queen Susan, should be visible for your Quechua) and 1 is 2NW,1W of his cap (Kind Edmund).

Research: Hunting, Myst, Agri, Mining -> He is probably on BW now and should have it finished EOT 17 or 18.

From that information he will earliest settle on turn 22 if he wants to get the 2 fish spot. And he will not grow to size 3 before turn 21, 23 for turn 4 - he can whip but if we strike on turn 30 (will not be much sooner due to having to build roads and stuff and I miss TW for 4-5 turns to come) he will not have those many forces. I lean towards letting him build his second city. He will build workers for it, not military.

That would mean I could strike him sooner with 5 axes. I guess his city should have borders popped, so what, 20% culture? Not grown possible (or he builds workboats what means lower military) so not whippable, an axe or only 1 or 2 warriors - warrior will be 2+45% = 2.9, an axe would be 5 + 70% = 8.5. My axes will be 7.5 - I guess even if he has 2 axes, 5 should be sufficient. And if he has 2 there, he should not have more then 1 or even none in his cap.

He still should be able to whip 3 axes out (assuming he has not started on an axe when you come with the stack to his border [make sure he does not see it before that move] he will probably

turn 1 (you are next to border): double whip for 26, 9 hammers for two pop working mines =35, 12 overflow, 1st axe
turn 2 (within border): 12+9=21 prod
turn 3 (1 away from cap): 21+6+20whip = 47 prod, 24 overflow, 2nd axe
turn 4 (next to his cap): 24+6 = 30 prod, 6 overflow 3rd axe
turn 5 (you attack): 6+6 = 12 prod

If you have to cross a river to attack, it will be 9.5 (5 +25% river crossing, +25% on a hill, +40% culture) against your 5 (+50% against melee is not counted it seems). If he has an axe in the cap or had started building one (though I would hope his military is out to save his 2nd city or get it back.) he will have 4 axes there. So you would need around 12 axes - thats a little bit too much - so do not attack across the river, that will make it 8.25. Still not nice and even then 10 axes might not be enough.

That is not good. We probably have to choke him there for some time with your axes and hope to find horses. I have spoken with TT now, told him that I might get issues with Dazed when he tries to grab my southern land and he will research AH soon and let me know if there are horses. He might even be willing to sell me something for settlers, we'll see.

Ok, I will need time to think that all through and I've got the save so I have to play now. But first to answer your other questions:

- I have seen copper only under our caps till now
- regarding taking out his cap first, then the other city - yeah, might be needed - but if he settles on turn 22, I will not be able to get my axes around that city without him noticing or needing much time (10+ with roads I would guess right now).

I'll let you know soon what course to take I think is best so that we can discuss it. Till then,
Serdoa

scooter,

realized only now, I forgot fortify bonus... Axes against Axes on his cap will really need much higher numbers.

Do you think Krill put also horses on the continent we are on? I somehow doubt that, as there are no AH resources, so really no reason to go for it.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Starting to realize taking out Dazed will probably be more difficult than we thought. Krill, care to answer on if we have horses too??

I need to ask him what his correspondence with Twinkletoes has been like. If we're planning a double-team like this, there is a chance we aren't the only ones. Wondering if he'd be able to sniff out a Dazed/TT double-team? I also need to consider a Dazed/Moogle double-team on me, but I don't feel like it's likely, as SleepingMoogle has been very friendly. Hah, though I've done the same to Dazed, so... I don't know. Maybe I'll just try to talk more to SleepingMoogle than I have been, and see if I can notice any hints. I think I'll probably just have to hope for the best and see what happens.

[scooter]

Starting to realize taking out Dazed will probably be more difficult than we thought.

Attack is off. There's just no way... More messages with Serdoa:

scooter,

I have thought a little bit about the current situation and I do not like it. HRE researched BW last turn. We have seen that coming, but an all-out-attack against him might damage us more then we can gain, even if we can kill him. I've done that battle for his cap now several times in a testgame - the numbers needed are 15+. Luck can help us, but I would rather not hope for that. We will have 0.1% chance on the first attack to kill an axe of his. With 4 there will be some which we not even damage. That alone can mean up to 10 axes (or more if we are unlucky) to only damage them to a point where we get odds in our favor.

I am not sure if our plan will work out the way we want with that many axes needed. We basically have to delay till turn 32 to even start the attack with sufficient numbers. But then those numbers might not be sufficient anymore. And we will be backwards due to the cost for those soldiers and less expansion.

I am thinking about changing that plan. We want to win something by that war, not lose the game (especially if we still have to play on, backwards as we are then). I want to deny him more cities still - but going for his cap right now might cost us the game, even if we take him out. Maybe I am to pessimistic, so before I go on, I would like to know what you think.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Was glad to see him send this email because I was thinking the same exact thing... My response:

Serdoa,

I actually have been thinking about it today at work, and I agree. We can't pull off the attack... It's just not do-able I don't think. We would need an enormous amount of luck to keep from crippling ourselves. I think we'll need to do one of two things:

1. Find horse (if there is any) and come with Horse Archers/Chariots instead
2. Wait for catapults

Do you agree? I'd still like to take him out, but that has to wait. I get the feeling actually that Krill did this intentionally - stuck us all on copper hills - so that although we probably would all like to rush because of our cramped starts, it's near impossible because copper can't be pillaged.

I hope this won't prevent us from working together like we planned going forward right? I still think we both have a lot to gain from working together longterm.

Thanks,
scooter

And:

Serdoa,

This is a quick "thinking out loud" message, as an idea came to mind. From talking to SleepingMoogle and Dazed, it sounds to me like we all have an island off our east coast. Or possibly it's an entrance to a mega-continent, but given that they don't seem to connect at all, island is more likely. It seems to be of decent size really... So if we're looking to basically strangle Dazed in between us, something we can consider is attempting to steal his island from him. Now that might be easier said than done because we may need open borders or war to do it, but if we could pull it off he may be in trouble. We both believe the vast majority of the land is overseas, so whether that island is attached to a mega continent or not, getting the islands is the key to expanding further out...

Thoughts? It's just a really rough idea, but it's just an idea that's come to mind...

scooter

scooter,

I agree completly. TT should look for horses around turn 30 and I think we both will not be able to look for them ourselves much earlier. And I would believe that they are on the other islands or continents anyway. The same for iron. Still, depending on how we do all that, it might make sense that one goes for HA, the other for Cats. But ultimately, Cats are needed, HAs not so much - if we send some cats into the city, even axes should have good enough odds quickly.

Regarding your idea about not letting him get to his island - that is a good idea. The question is how to do it? Do you have something in mind already for that? I think we cannot kill Galleys (it is only a one tile coast between the continent and the island so he can load the settler in his city to the galley, move one tile and unload if I am not mistaken). We also might get issues with the culture from his capital. I am not sure how it reaches over to the island, but if it expanded as it would with only landtiles (instead of the coast) then 2 settlers will be needed (one on each side) to deny him that island. Also he will have it easy to attack us there till we have enough culture in those cities (which will take some time).

Let me know if you have any idea how to pull that off. And keep in mind that we have to secure our northern respectively southern flank and our own islands also. Or do you think about not giving too much about those 6 or 7 cities we get on the starting continent but rather race for the bigger land out there?

Anyway, even if we have to wait till Cavalry to take him out, I would like to work together with you. We might see possibilities down the road, maybe already in some turns when he tries to settle in my direction, maybe only a turn 100.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Not sure on the island-stealing expedition, I admit it might be more of a pipe dream than anything... Played a new turn and at end-turn I have a settler.

[Krill]

So, care to do a recap? you seem to have done a lot in the past 20 turns

[scooter]

So, care to do a recap? you seem to have done a lot in the past 20 turns

Sure - ideas/plans keep changing so fast that it's almost hard to keep up with. I don't have time for a recap now, but I can later tonight. Anything in particular you'd like to know? Looking for a roughly chronological summary? Mostly interested in diplo, future long-term planning, short-term planning, map theories, or what?

[Krill]

You've written a fabulous thread, but I particularly enjoy reading your ideas about long term plans (and how they interact with the map). Your thoughts on those are, frankly, enchanting.

[scooter]

Wow - thanks! Glad to know it's been a good read... It's funny, I know a thread that's good to read when I see it, but when I'm playing the game myself I find it's a lot harder to figure out what the reader cares about and what they don't care about. So, you asked for map, I give you not one, but TWO crappily drawn theories in Paint. Have I ever mentioned I'm not an artist? Well after you see these, you'll know I'm telling the truth. First a few words about how I've come up with these drawings...


So I concluded in a previous post that somewhere over 2/3rds of all the land out there is NOT on our starting strip. It was a really rough calculations, and I was very conservative in my estimation, which is why I just say "it's over 2/3rds." When Serdoa told me he estimated 3/4ths of the land was off of our strip, that sounded very plausible to me, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's right given my knowledge of the strip has since improved. I am probably 90% sure of the whole "strip is on the left side of a Tilted Axis" theory now, because:

1. I have confirmed with Serdoa that his trees are snowy, and he's nearly half a world away
2. As far as I can tell, you don't get to decide what color trees are, it's auto-decided. So Krill couldn't have put snow trees in there manually to screw with us, it would ONLY be like that if it's Tiltled Axis. This makes Toroidal impossible. Wait... I need to verify that. I would think it's impossible, because it seems bizarre to make a Tilted Axis script and then make Toroidal an option.

So to make a drawing, I stick a starting strip that goes top to bottom, and then I have to figure out what would make sense and fits with the "island" that each player has off his coast. Thus, it seems likely that we each have an island to ourselves. I'm guessing horse/iron is on each island AND/OR marble/stone is here... Something to motivate us to get over there. First off, I see silver there, and I see NO happy resources besides our capital's ivory, so that seems to support that - there's good reason to explore that way because there's more there than corn/fish .

So I plot the "islands" there, and then there has to be a mega-continent out there I'd think. I would consider it being more like an Archipelago "lots of islands" kinda game, except there's just WAY too much land out there for that. So mega-continent it is. I'd be surprised if it's all corn like this strip is, but I'll get to that after the pictures.

Theory 1:



Yes you'll notice I didn't even bother TRYING to line up the little islands very well. And yes I think the shapes are more oval-ish than round from what little bit I can see, but it's meant to be a rough idea, not something that gets printed in the history books.

So this is sort of the traditional idea - probably the most likely one. Actually it's very possible that, from a balance standpoint, the coast over there is flat so the player near the closest end doesn't get an unfair advantage. I'm guessing though that in this case, it will only be reachable by Galleon, so mid-game there will be a massive expansion rush. I'd call this map a "Terra on steroids" - you know, where the "New World" actually matters.

Another possibility that is a mild variation of this is that yes it IS a circle, but there is a "tiny islands" chain connecting each island to the circle, making it a race to land first. If there's only one "landing spot" it could get dicey as someone could try to block all/some off from landing at all until galleons. And the reason I don't have a drawing of this is because I just thought of it. And no I will not make you a drawing. Sue me.

So here's another idea - this one's a little more wacky but it would NOT shock me:



So what I'm saying is those might NOT be islands, but rather "fingers" onto the main continent. That would be something... Not much by way of explanation needed here...


So what does this mean???

This means the "New World" is massively important. I think, longterm, a palace jump is probably the right call... And by "probably" I mean absolutely. This is why I was so willing to just hand Dazed an inland city site (which I probably could have had a good claim on at least most of it's tiles), because honestly, I don't care about inland city sites on the strip that much. It's also why I got a work boat + worker from SleepingMoogle instead of a city site, because I'd rather get a jump on my growth curve than get a slightly better settling agreement on cities that are much less critical.

And really, that's why when I started to realize we would have to badly stunt our growth to KO Dazed, it suddenly seemed like a not good idea... Let's get a jump on the islands/exploration instead.

Also - I don't think I'll get circumnavigation. I didn't send out a second Quecha to my south, I was banking on sending a work boat south instead. I realized later that, well, I'm stupid. Work boat can't just cruise through cultural borders... Open borders will likely come too late. I can maybe get a Galley out, but we'll see what happens. I'll have to do some math on how many tiles I have yet to unfog. I've had good barb luck with my Quecha thus far, and I've tried to stay along the east (cultural borders + other warriors = less barbs) which has helped. I'm probably a longshot, because if anyone else figured Tilted Axis and made a determined north-south circumnav rush, well they'll beat me. I'm still going to try though, as it would be a huge benefit.

One last thought... Great Lighthouse. Only Industrious civ in the game. I shall say no more...

[pocketbeetle]

Interesting stuff.

[Bobchillingworth]

Don't forget the Colossus (IND plus copper!) and the Temple of Artemis (would be nice to see that wonder actually matter in a game) !

[scooter]

Thanks PB! And yeah Colossus is screaming to be built as well given the copper.

Diplo stuff, first with Serdoa:

Serdoa,

Honestly I really don't know what the best way to do that is - it was mostly an idea without a plan. It would take a galley + settler from each of us to pull it off really. It depends a LOT on how big the island is - If it's fairly large, then we could go further inland and each plant a city or something to that effect. It's something maybe we can revisit once we have a better idea of the map, because I don't really know how do-able it'd be at this point. Just something to remember.

Here's a possibility - we keep Dazed on an OCC. Once he puts a couple cities down, we raze them. This will put him way behind... If we hit his cities before they connect to copper, 3 axes can raze them unless he defends them well.

Where is your first settler going? North or south? That could have a big impact on how everything goes.

scooter

scooter,

my first city will go south in Dazeds direction. TT has no intention to war with me and we have an agreement for the land, so I do not have to fear that side.

Keeping Dazed on one city will only work if I raze his first city and we both then send troops immediately to his cap. We have to choke him there, as I will not be able to raze further cities. As he will probably settle turn 22 his city, I will have to raze it till turn 25 or 26. Means you will have to have troops to choke him on turn 28 around at his cap.

We will not be able to keep that cooperation confidential then. If we do that (and I will need to know at turn 20 latest) we will, as soon as it becomes obvious, have to find a nice story. Probably something about me getting in a not-to-be-won-war with Dazed and you help out for some concessions from me.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

He's founding towards Dazed, and Dazed has been expecting him to go north... Hasn't attempted to make a deal, which was a big mistake on his part. Think he got a little greedy there honestly . Sure enough, got this yesterday afternoon:

Scooter,

What gave you the impression previously that Serdoa would be settling north? He has a settler headed south already.

Dazed

Scooter,

What gave you the impression previously that Serdoa would be settling north? He has a settler headed south already.

Dazed

This made me laugh a little bit. I'm curious what Dazed will do about it. Dazed went from thinking he could grab the coast both north AND south of his capital, and now he will get neither one without war. And THAT'S why I pushed for deals on both sides of me .