SPOILER - Dazedroyalty's Thread

[dazedroyalty]

My response to Serdoa:

Serdoa,

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. Of course the offer seems generous to you and from your stand point! I'm not saying it was an easy decision, but it's not a CLEAR decision either. If you cannot see how giving you a third city on T25 is an extremely unbalancing game decision not just for me but for all the other players as well, then you are being naive.

Accepting your offer would have improved my individual situation, but would have exponentially improved your situation. Let's not forget that you would have 3 cities while I only have 1 for 15 turns. Even if you had to tie up one city to build the settler/galley you would owed me, you still have two other cities building for your empire plus the extra income.

Only history will tell if I have fallen on my sword for no cause, but it is my firm belief that if I had simply conceded to your demands as you desired the future would look much bleaker.

I was and am still open to rearranging the time table. You clearly can raze the city any turn you want so you cannot claim that you are fearful that I will defend it from you or cost you units. If you raze the city this turn it only proves that you are unwilling to pursue any further negotiations that would not give you exactly what you want.

Which brings me to my final point. YOU have been the aggressor in this entire situation. I will not accept responsibility or allow you to paint me as having done something to deserve your aggression. To suggest that I should not have settled in the location I did is to make the claim that somehow becuase of your city settlement you also have exclusive rights to the coastal site as well.

Might is going to allow you to raze my city, but might does not make right! (Cliche, woot!)

I do not hold any hard feelings against you personally, but the Narnian Empire will not forget the actions of our northern neighbors.

His math about settlers is roughly correct but he misses my concern. Plopping down two cities at once 15 turns after he does is NOT the same thing as have three cities the whole time. Plus, he is IMP and could have more cities by the end.

"Know thy enemy." I do understand his reasoning. I complete agree that I am making a decision that is worse for me individually at this moment. I do not believe I am making a decision that is worse for me long term and definitely think that I am making a decision that is better for the other three players. While that is not explicitly a benefit to me, there is a chance that I can swing that to my advantage at some future date.


Honest confessions:

-The thought of losing the city is discouraging as I am competitive and hate to be so far behind. I plan to push through though!

-Serdoa might have been able to get me to agree if he didn't try to strong arm me so much. He's gonna hurt me but he's not helping himself by refusing to negotiate. He already has all the units he needs so he's not hurting himself by waiting 1-2 turns to attack. But his tactics during this negotiation invoke my gut, "Screw you!" response.

-I have made a number of mistakes along the way. Not communicating with Serdoa earlier (though it seems he may still have wanted to settle south and refused to allow me to settle near him) was a big one.

-I've gone back and re-read my original message to Serdoa after he sent his settler south. I was not trying to be harsh or demanding, but I think my final paragraph was too strongly worded. Perhaps a different initial message would have changed Serdoa's stance towards me just enough to survive.

-Not remembering to revolt to slavery while the settler was in route was foolish.

-Waiting two turns to settle and get my axe north would have made a HUGE difference too. Either that or going straight to another military unit before the workboat as that would have also gotten the axeman there in time. This is the only decision that I seriously regret.

I expect his next move will be to raze with his southern axe, then move his northern axe towards his second city. The warrior will simply move west somehow away from any potential attack.

My plan is to simply harass him around his city as much as I can as I will not be able to attack directly unless I somehow manage to get a Axe on Warrior opportunity.

Long term, I still hope to resettle that spot but I highly doubt that happen. In fact, it would not surprise me if Serdoa is building a settler in his capital that he plans to rush down there and close the spot off.

We'll see what happens. At least this is making things interesting!

[meatbalz]

yeah, his having two axes in the area is a problem for you, and he'll probably move as you think. that worker of his is chopping, almost certainly into another axe. sign peace, get a galley out and settle that island double-quick. also - what's the diplomatic feedback? anything back from the others? i would guess everyone is too busy with their own expansion to really care, but it would be great if you managed to bring spmeone onside. who's on the other side of india?

[dazedroyalty]

yeah, his having two axes in the area is a problem for you, and he'll probably move as you think. that worker of his is chopping, almost certainly into another axe. sign peace, get a galley out and settle that island double-quick. also - what's the diplomatic feedback? anything back from the others? i would guess everyone is too busy with their own expansion to really care, but it would be great if you managed to bring spmeone onside. who's on the other side of india?

Scooter and SleepingMoogle have been encouraging. They obviously cannot help militarily but I think they realize that Serdoa getting that city gifted to him would be bad for them, so I'm hoping I gain some diplo credit for that.

I don't think he's chopping an axeman in his second city, though he could be. The reason I doubt it is because I don't think the city is connected for copper. But I could be wrong since my map info is woefully inadequate.

[meatbalz]

fair enough - what do you think he's chopping into?

how quickly can you get a galley-settler-axe combo out?

[Krill]

Dazed, good luck, I'm sure you can make something of this situation

[dazedroyalty]

My message to Serdoa:

Serdoa,

I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way. Of course the offer seems generous to you and from your stand point! I'm not saying it was an easy decision, but it's not a CLEAR decision either. If you cannot see how giving you a third city on T25 is an extremely unbalancing game decision not just for me but for all the other players as well, then you are being naive.

Accepting your offer would have improved my individual situation, but would have exponentially improved your situation. Let's not forget that you would have 3 cities while I only have 1 for 15 turns. Even if you had to tie up one city to build the settler/galley you would owed me, you still have two other cities building for your empire plus the extra income.

Only history will tell if I have fallen on my sword for no cause, but it is my firm belief that if I had simply conceded to your demands as you desired the future would look much bleaker.

I was and am still open to rearranging the time table. You clearly can raze the city any turn you want so you cannot claim that you are fearful that I will defend it from you or cost you units. If you raze the city this turn it only proves that you are unwilling to pursue any further negotiations that would not give you exactly what you want.

Which brings me to my final point. YOU have been the aggressor in this entire situation. I will not accept responsibility or allow you to paint me as having done something to deserve your aggression. To suggest that I should not have settled in the location I did is to make the claim that somehow becuase of your city settlement you also have exclusive rights to the coastal site as well.

Might is going to allow you to raze my city, but might does not make right! (Cliche, woot!)

I do not hold any hard feelings against you personally, but the Narnian Empire will not forget the actions of our northern neighbors.

Dazed

His response:

Dazed,

you will probably have already seen that your axe and warrior are dead. Your two warriors which are on the way to my 2nd city should better back-off or they will be killed as well. I do not think that you want to be down to 0 military force.

Regarding your thoughts on my offer: Yes, it would improve my situation in comparison to the others. But maybe you should not look at my situation or at the situation of the others but at your own situation?

You can still gift me the city and receive a settler by turn 35. The galley will not be included in the offer anymore and there will be no reparations for your forces, but one warrior will be gifted together with the settler.

Take it and at least be at turn 37 up on city count with all others or leave it - I do not care anymore.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

My response will depend on what wins: my principles (NEVER GIVE UP, NEVER SURRENDER) or my pragmatism. Serdoa got REALLY lucky as far as I can tell on those two battles. His axe had to attack mine across a river and I am 99.9% sure it wasn't promoted once, much less twice to get Melee bonus. Then he won what was essentially a toss-up on warrior versus warrior. That sucks.

Pragmatically, I was hoping to save the warrior and didn't expect to lose the axe. It makes sense that he would try to take out the axe before I moved onto a forest or forest/hill but it was risky. It paid off though! (Reminds me of my last MP game when I got super lucky against scooter when we both moved a warrior onto a forested hill at the same time and then I took out a bowman with a archer in a toss up -- both went my way!)

Now I have no units to move towards him and while I will have an axe out next turn and another soon after, if he chose to press in on me, I'd be in a very bad situation. I think that the best move for the Narnian empire might have just swung over to accepting, but I find that a hard move to stomach. But I see no immediate advantage to refusing either anymore.

From a meta game perspective, I'm still very much up in the air. Giving Serdoa that third city would be not good.

I'm thinking I will send a message to Scooter and SleepingMoogle and test the waters for some kind of tangible committment to help from them in exchange for not giving the city to Serdoa.

[dazedroyalty]

Message to the other nations:

Scooter and SleepingMoogle,

Here's the current situation. Serdoa was in a situation to raze the city regardless of what I did, so I attempted to move units away from the city to save them and harass him in the field later. I was hoping Serdoa would axe my warrior leaving a pathway open for my axeman to advance on his new city. However, he instead opted for TWO very risky military options and attacked my axe with his (both unpromoted) across a river and attacked my warrior with his--a total toss up. Unfortunately, both battles went his way.

I believe his plan was to use his second axe to raze the city immediately if he lost those battles, but since he won them both, he did not do so yet. Instead he is offering an amended deal that would require me to gift the city for a future gift of a settler.

The reality of the situation is that his unexpected move made a serious dent into the forces I have available at the moment. I do not wish to agree to gift him the city as that would be an extremely unbalancing situation, but if I do not agree I will be at a loss with no benefit and no immediate recourse to even harass/pillage Serdoa. On principle, the Narnian Empire does not give in to bullies, but I also must consider the good of my people.

Obviously, refusing his offer would be beneficial to you both and TwinkleToes--not to mention satisfying to Narnian pride. I know that you share my desire to prevent Serdoa's immediate acquisition of a third city. Might there be anything you can offer (now or in the future) that would make refusing his offer more palatable? (For example, a trade for your cheaper EXP workers). I do not expect out right gifts nor does the Narnian people come with our tails between our legs. Instead, I merely seek to explore all possibilities before making a final decision.

Dazed

I am taking a risk here. Obviously Scooter could throw a couple of axes into the mix and totally screw me over. If that happens... at least I'd get to read the other threads sooner than later!

[dazedroyalty]

Big change:

Serdoa,

I have offered to give you the city in game. I agree to simply receiving a settler without a galley on the provision that a settler is your next build (i.e. no delays). If you accept the city in game, it will mean you accept that condition. If you do not accept the condition, then please cancel the deal.

Dazed

I received zero response from Scooter of SleepingMoogle while I was away teh last day, so I have to assume there is nothing that they can/will do to help and with the unexpected loss of both the axe and the warrior, I see no other option. It feels like a compromise of principle (which it is) but live to fight another day...

[meatbalz]

how quickly can you get a galley-settler-axe combo out?

equally importantly, since i haven't looked at the game as carefully as you have - what's your sense of how much land is on the mainland as opposed to the islands?

what are your arrangements with scooter? do you think it's possible serdoa can talk him around to hitting you from the other side. that's what i would do if i were in his shoes.

[dazedroyalty]

equally importantly, since i haven't looked at the game as carefully as you have - what's your sense of how much land is on the mainland as opposed to the islands?

what are your arrangements with scooter? do you think it's possible serdoa can talk him around to hitting you from the other side. that's what i would do if i were in his shoes.

The island directly to my east looks smaller than the starting continent. I can't tell yet but I think that each player has an island off the their coast and they do not connect. I hope to explore that more asap.

As to Scooter, I don't think he'll attack me in the near future, but long term I can see that being possible. I am going to settle that spot I agreed with Scooter asap now though because he has a religion, I don't necessarily have a strong cultural advantage with him.

Here's the picture:



So frustrating... I want those horses now so I can chariot Serdoa back to the middle ages as soon as the 10 turn forced peace ends, but that doesn't seem possible because I would have to research sailing, build a galley, connect horses and plant a city on the island so that the horses are connected to something.

I am making it my goal to retake Aslan's How (or whatever silly name Serdoa is calling it now) before this game ends. My hope had been on horses and doing it sooner than later, but it looks like Narnia will have to bide it's time and wait till later. Fortunately, with my capital, I still have a strong cultural presence next to the city that means it will eventually be possible without too much problem. He'll need to put a number of spears there to prevent me from attacking the city the first turn of a war.

Patience is my biggest downfall as I already pointed out during the pre game thoughts and as I paid the price for by not waiting two turns to settle. (I was thinking about it, we settled the same turn which means if this was a pitboss instead, I might have settled before Serdoa! That would have been impressive since he's EXP/IMP.)

I need to regroup and figure out what the' next best move...