[Spoilers] Defining the phrase "€˜Hung Like a Horse"€™: Pb & the Kuriotates

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 26:

Let’s start with Conan-watch, and ignore the irrelevant (FoL religion) event.
Loaded the save this morning to find the Barb still there, and me missing a warrior in Kwythellar.
RIP Scrambled Defense.

That’s why I was slightly pessimistic before - looks like the only thing that saved me was that AI quirk.
Oh well!

Conan is damaged to 1.7 (3) health, which gives the new guy 75% odds.
If I lose a 70% battle then a 75% in straight succession… well, you can stick a fork in me right now because it’s surely not meant to be.




So off we go.




I couldn’t really do anything else there. If I’d delayed, the Barb would have just promoted again (he won at 30% odds remember) and then killed me a turn or two later.

Kwythellar returns to worker production and working the oasis.
Assuming I don’t get Orthus spawning right next to me, that should be the last time Barbs threaten the Kuriotates with extinction.
Hopefully they’ll be no more than a nuisance from now on.


Over to Vanilla Ice, who moved SE-E.
All I ‘ve been doing with this guy is sticking to the defensive terrain, preferably forested hills.
I moved SE, whereupon I could see the pigs tile, the hill 1E of it, and from the tile bleed, the forested hill 2E of the pigs.
Hence the second movement East, with the intention of moving SE-S via the marble to the plains hill forest next turn.

What I didn’t expect to see was the Svartalfar border!
It’s pale grey, and always hard to see ingame. Kind of thematic really.

He’s also stupidly close to the Illians.
I can fit both borders in one screenshot, and I thought the 18 tiles between Selrahc and myself was bad.
At least, being landlocked, he has a reasonable choice in the direction to expand.

Next move I’ll either move SE-NE onto a forest visible through the bleed, or SW-SW onto the hill dungeon.
Depends on whether I want to go East above the Svarts, South below them, or double back and return to scout South of the Illians.



My turn to initiate contact. Remember I’m favourably inclined to Sareln, Cull and Archduke, starting at +1 straight away, and positive modifiers will grow faster.

Hi Sareln!

My ratman had the good fortune to stumble upon your misty borders this turn.
I’m typing this to confirm that his massive 2 strength is absolutely no danger to your men, city, or your worker.
Appropriately named Vanilla Ice, he’s suffered terribly from frostbite of the tail after travelling through Illian lands, as well as battling fell beasts too numerous to list.

Short-term, I’m trying to decide where my scout should go next.
Any directions, guidance or animal warnings that you can provide will be gratefully received.
In terms of foreign civs, the Kuriotates only have contact with yourself and the Illians. Being the only Good civ, we also receive the occasional mystic guidance on the vampiric infestation of this continent.

Jokes aside, I’ve specifically stated in my thread at the start: you are someone I really want to establish a good relationship with in this game.
Nothing I’ve seen about this map changes that.

I sincerely hope we can work together.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Sincere and Honest Boy-King.

Bit of a mistake to use 'sincere' twice, but I mean all of the above.
We’re not going to be fighting for land or resources for a long time, and he could help me if Selrahc goes aggro.

Only point of note in that message is me showing off and telling him I know he’s got a worker.
(Assuming he hasn’t had a similar barb problem to mine, he should have built a worker several turns ago…like I would have. )

I also need to write a short message to Selrahc to inform him I’ve met the Svarts.
Sounds better if he finds out from me.
I’ll sympathise on how close they are also.


Demographics:

For starters, from the first screenshot in this post we know Selrahc revolted to God King and Pacifism.
It would have been a lot simpler just to wait for that civic switch than all those complicated numbers, but oh well. :rolleyes:

God King is a good move, and Selrahc’s production has ballooned because of it.
I’m not sure about the effect of 1 turn revolts on GNP display, so will wait for T27 before making any conclusions.

Other stuff:

• Score: Bob now has a size 3 city, and gained a corresponding score increase.
  
• Worldspell: We're getting close to the point where Bob has to tip his hand regarding his worldspell.
  If he means to use it earlygame, then he has to use it soon or the +2 pop effect will take him over his happy cap.
  If he grows manually to pop 4 or 5, then I would say he's saving it for mid/end game.
  
• Rival best crop yield: 11
  I think this is likely to be Bob, rather than Selrahc changing the tiles he’s working for an anarchy turn.
  If so, Bob has 3 x 3f tiles, which is fitting with my ‘everyone 3 food resources 1 commerce resource’ hypothesis.
  Graphs next turn will confirm, plus I should make a note of trying to ask Sareln about this at some point.
  

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo Update T26:

I received this message from the Svartalfar in response to my greetings.

Subject: Re:Greetings
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 2010 11:41:55 PM

Welcome to the mist-shrouded lands of the Svartalfar. I apologize for
not able to bring my scout out to meet you as original proposed by
Selrahc, but certain... barbarian activities required me to hold the
scout back to run interference. I am glad you have arrived to my
lands safely.

Cull of the Dwarves is positioned somewhere to my west, which I can
say is relatively clear of animals right now. That would probably be
your best bet for future scouting. If you head straight west from the
top of my borders, you should see an ancient tower and a number of
forested hills which should provide good shelter to your scout. To
our south I see some edges of jungles, which are always dangerous.

Though we are officially classified as "evil" I think this is just the
result of close-minded classifiers made by those who haven't tried to
understand us, instead replacing objective evaluation with base
passion and intolerance. We seek the peace and solitude of our
forests, and look forward to working closely with the Kuriotates in
the coming age.

-Sareln-

And shortly after that:

Subject: Re:Greetings
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 1:22:39 AM

Okay, now that I can see where your scout is, there's an ancient tower
12 west and 3 south and good hills to move between the entire way
through.

As soon as I read the first one, alarm bells went off in my head.
Specifically two.

• This is not the Sareln from the forum, who is quite affable and friendly.
  This message is coolly neutral and full of rpg crap. I didn’t expect Sareln to go all D&D on me.
  It means I’m not dealing with the Sareln from the forum, I’m dealing with someone who is possibly roleplaying treacherous and sneaky elves.
  Yay.
  
  
• His assertion that Cull is West.
  I’d been working with the assumption that Cull is to the –East- of Sareln, hence my comment about Vanilla Ice moving above or below the Svart capital.
  It took me a while of reading through this thread (It’s really good! ) to find out how I’d come to (incorrectly?) presume this.
  

I found it eventually:

So as filler, here's a diplo message:

<snip>
I haven't encountered any more civilizations, but the elves inform me that they've encountered a Dwarven civilization to their east and could probably tell you more about that. <snip>
Regards
Selrahc

So we’re now faced with five options regarding Cull’s location.

1. Sareln made a mistake in his message to me (he meant East).
   
   
2. Sareln made a mistake in his message to the Illians (he meant West).
   
   
3. The Illians (Selrahc) made a mistake in their message to me (they meant West).
   
   
4. Sareln lied to the Illians.
   
   
5. Sareln lied to me.
   

I’m discounting the possibility of Selrahc lying to me for the time being.

It makes no sense that he actively facilitated my meeting with his direct neighbour, Sareln, only to mislead me from a meeting with what he believes to be an indirect neighbour.
I can think of no reason why he’d lie to prevent me meeting Cull; unless he deliberately typed the above in order to seed distrust in the future between his two direct neighbours, Sareln and I.
But in which case, he’s a master diplomat who is playing an absolute blinder, and I’ll happily take my hat off to him.

So, how do we go about ferreting out the truth?
Let’s narrow down the options above first, with another foray to Sareln.

Hey Sareln,

Sorry I do apologise - I completely forgot to mention where my scout was.
You're right, he's NW from the marble tile, in the direction towards Selrahc.

It's not a problem about meeting up, I too have been getting very familiar with the barbarians.
If you check the power/hammer graphs etc, you'll see I've recently been rushing to build warriors and indeed even lost one last turn.
Most of the posts in my thread have been along the lines of 'Will I die this turn? Will I die -this- turn?'
I haven't played many FFH games before and I'm definitely struggling a touch, as the scores demonstrate.

As for evil vs good. I'd be a bit daft to cling to alignment issues, as it certainly wouldn't leave me with many allies.
Indeed, I may even consider turning to the dark side later on in the game, if I'm still alive.
Apparently you guys have cookies.

Also thankyou very much for the guidance on finding Cull, I really appreciate it.
You said there's an ancient tower 12 west of the tile my scout is on, which is towards Selrahc, maybe even past him (I haven't checked ingame), and then 3 tiles down, is that correct?
Will that give me sight onto Cull's cultural borders?
Roughly where will his capital be from the ancient tower?

Finally, regarding your desire to maintain the peace and solitude of your forests.
That shouldn't be a problem, as we are a goodly separation from each other; I anticipate no border clashes in the short or medium term.
Heaven knows you're close enough to the Illians anyway.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Cautious and Concerned Boy-King

Points to note in the above message:

1. If Sareln is lying to me, it may be that he considers me a threat.
   As such I’ve gone out of my way to emphasise my current weakness, presenting myself as inept, no threat.
   • Barb problems, including loss of a warrior, backed up by the power graphs that he’ll be able to see.
     
     
   • Playing down this thread’s post count.
     
     
   • Low score.
     
   
   
   
2. If he’s roleplaying, another reason for deception may be the alignment difference.
   So I (truthfully) suggest I may go neutral/evil later and throw in a joke in there.
   
   
3. Reassure him regarding border concerns.
   It’s taken 25 turns to meet him, common sense should tell him we’re not going to be clashing borders anytime soon. And doesn’t he have enough to worry about with Selrahc?
   
   
4. Since he’s going the roleplaying route and I’m the token goodie, I get to throw in words like ‘Heaven’ and ‘Goodly’ into the last paragraph.
   I’ll fit ‘Verily’ in there next time.
   
   
5. Metagame-wise, I’ve considered the possibility that I annoyed him by opposing his motion to be able to share maps pre-Cartography.
   So before sending that message, I made sure I retracted my objection.
   
   
6. And most importantly, I hit him with the three questions in the second to last paragraph.
   I don’t care about the last two questions so much, I can ask them later.
   The crucial one is the first, ending in ‘is that correct?’. I’ve included a comparative reference also, ie ‘which is towards Selrahc, maybe even past him’.
   That leaves no room to later claim he meant East (point 1).
   

Once I’ve received Sareln’s reply, I’ll move on to address points 2 and 3 by requesting a copy of the email Sareln sent Selrahc.

Actually, scrap that.
I’ve just pulled up the save, and checked out the tile Sareln is pointing me to.



Okay, I’ll make no more pretensions at neutrality.
I knew something in this matter stank as soon as I read his email, and now I realise it’s a rotting wood smell.
I really should have looked before sending the above to Sareln, but oh well.

Forget waiting for his reply, move onto points 2 and 3 straight away.

[rpg]Hail Selrahc, oh Mighty Winter King! [/rpg]

I just wanted to inform you, the scout Vanilla Ice made contact with the Svartalfar earlier today, and to thank you again for your assistance.

The Kuriotates have already sent and received a greeting from a rather deep voiced Faeryl Viconia, and although initial impressions appear positive, the return missive did seem to contain a lot of confusingly long words.
For example, my Minister's assurance that the Kuriotates were not on a Goody two-shoes crusade was met with the response:

'Though we are officially classified as "evil" I think this is just the
result of close-minded classifiers made by those who haven't tried to
understand us, instead replacing objective evaluation with base
passion and intolerance.'

Kwythellar is currently being scoured for academics capable of translating, and failing that, we'll draft some latrine workers as politicians.

In the meantime, I was wondering if you could help me decide where to send my scout.
In a previous message, you mentioned the Dwarves as being located to the -East-, information that had been passed on to you by Sareln?
I would be very keen to have any more info concerning the Dwarves, even if it's just to confirm the above line.

Just to be clear, I'm not asking you to act as an intermediate for the Kuriotates and Svartalfar, nor to request further information.
At the moment, I'm more interested in what he has told you in the past.

And I won't insult your intelligence by pretending this is just a random fly of the moment request, you're smart enough to figure out there is slightly more going on here.
I'd consider it a small personal favour if you were to forward me a copy of the email in which Sareln states the above, if he did say such.

Kind Regards,
Pb, Deceptively Curious Boy-King

Sareln has just taken a -2 diplomacy hit (-1 overall) for what I believe to be a blatant lie.
This penalty will increase to -5 if he continues to insist on this stupidity.

Have no illusions, I’m not taking this lightly. It is not some mischievious prank resulting in the loss of ‘only’ a scout.
Sareln has attempted to prevent me making contact with another player, in order to inhibit the overall development of my civ.
He’s lied with the very first message to me, and has made it nearly impossible for me to trust him for the rest of this game.

[Dantski]

I really wouldn't worry about the east/west thing, I've dealt with a lot of people who make this mistake constantly.

In my private FfH games I've seen a tower on a forest hill...

[Ilios]

I really wouldn't worry about the east/west thing, I've dealt with a lot of people who make this mistake constantly.

Guilty!

[pocketbeetle]

Turn 27:

Oooh Event!

Nice one this, giving free beakers for nothing.
It’s just a shame that it always seems to materialise when you’ve nearly researched the tech anyway. That event can give a lot more than 41 beakers.



Still, I’m definitely not complaining.
It’s 4 free turns of research, will confuse anyone following my stats, and Calendar comes in.
Ancient Chants next as I’ve outlined previously.

Vanilla Ice moves SE-NE. Next turn will move NE-E into the forest.
Probably should have taken Guerilla promotion on Vanilla Ice rather than Woodsman, but at the time it looked like there was going to be more forest than hills. *shrugs*




Demographics:

[img] http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1861/...t0008p.jpg[/img][img] http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/2931/ci...t0005t.jpg[/img][img] http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5157/...0006xp.jpg[/img][img] http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/630/c...t0007a.jpg[/img]

Important things first:

Selrahc GNP 16, while still maintaining 10f/13h output.
(3f/1c, 3f, 3h, 3h, 2f/1h + base city tile = 10f/ 9h (->13h)/ 11c /turn.
Means he’s researching something with a prereq. (11 * 1.2 +4 = 16)
He has the following techs: Anc Chants, Mysticism, Exploration.
Possible options are:

• Fishing
  
  
• Education
  
  
• Hunting
  
  
• Cartography
  
  
• Philosophy
  
  
• Knowledge of the Ether
  

Out of those, only Philosophy makes sense to me, with Hunting and Cartography a distant second place.
Philosophy gives him access to the PoW ritual, which allows a mean rush as well as other minor benefits (wonder, +1 happy from incense).
Rushing is a viable tactic given how close Sareln (and I) are to him.

Philosophy requires 323 beakers, so at his current pace of 12 research, it should fall in 27 turns.
The actual ritual itself costs 268h, which at his current 13h output should take approx 21 turns.
So in 48 turns (T75) he could have the Priests online.

However I doubt he’ll be able to take both of us out.
It should only be good for wiping one of his neighbours, so he’ll have to pick between Sareln and I; assuming for the moment that Bob or Archduke don’t suddenly pop up South of him (entirely possible given the current separations on show). As a result I’m moving up to DEFCON 1.
Going to have to consider my options, both what I can do to defend, and whether Sareln and I joining up could stop this.

Other stuff:

• Nice to see Sareln demos confirmed.
  Currently he seems to be doing a repeat of my recent performance: working a 1f/2h glfh in order to build a warrior asap.
  
  
• Looks like Sareln got his forested start also.
  He is almost certainly the 92 life expectancy, beating me even with my innate +4 health bonuses (Expansive +3, Palace +1).
  
  
• Similarly Bob built a warrior last turn.
  Riv Av soldier count rose to 9.6k. He seems to have switched to food tiles afterward.
  
  
• Bob is at Crop Yield: 9
  So I guess I’m wrong, he doesn’t have 3 x 3f tiles in his BFC. Oh well that’s one theory gone.
  I would say he’s currently working 3f/1c, 3f/1c, 1f/2h, ie inland river placement.
  
  
• Bob GNP: 15
  Researching something with a prereq.
  

I’ll deal with diplo later.

[Adlain]

If i may speak after being shot and left to rot............

Its good to see you running a C&D Dept, i know myself that i sturggle with the demographs in all my games and seing somone other than sullla write a detailed analasys of how to do it is good imho.

[pocketbeetle]

Diplo Update T27:

Received the following three emails in reply to my query to Sareln.

Subject: Re:Greetings^2
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 8:47:19 AM

It's a good thing you asked about the directions because I totally
messed them up. East, not West. So I would be situated between Cull
and Selrahc. I don't know if it will give you sight, it's in the
general direction, Cull found me due to having to pull my scout back.
I've just resent my scout out in that direction, so I'll let you know
if Cull is out there.

As a friendly reminder, you need about 5 - 6 warriors to deal with
Orthus reliably, and he will spawn around turn 50 - 60 iirc.

And yes, I am rather close for comfort to the Illians, when I spotted
those borders in Stasis I was worried about an oncoming warrior
rush... fortunately it does not appear to have materialized.

-Sareln-

Checking my screenshots is should be 9E, 3S. If you've passed the
plains cows you've gone too far.

Dangit, can't count. 8E, 3S

That’s more like it!
Friendly, bit of advice, and importantly, what appears to be truthful directions.

Not buying the ‘oops I made a mistake’ excuse however.

I really wouldn't worry about the east/west thing, I've dealt with a lot of people who make this mistake constantly.

Guilty!

I honestly hear what you two are saying, and will take it into account.

I did consider that it could be an honest mistake.
Writing ‘west’ once is understandable, twice possible.
But three times?
Over the course of two emails, the second of which includes specific numbers suggesting he’s gone ingame/used screenshots to count?
And how does 12W 3S become 8E 3S?
I really can’t figure it out.

I think he’s realised he screwed up, has been caught, and is trying to backpedal.
But at least he’s come clean rather than trying to force the issue through.
I can work with that.

Taking into account that I may be over-reacting, Sareln stays at -1 for the time being and he can stay in the more desirable camp along with Archduke and Cull.
I won’t lie though, the thought of buttering up to the Illians and pointing him at the Svartalfar has become significantly more attractive than a possibly shaky Defensive Pact.

Especially when they’re being very approachable:

Subject: Dwarves and Elves
Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 3:49:19 PM

The information I have on the dwarves came from this message. That is the limit of my knowledge on the matter sadly, as I haven't yet got into contact with them.

"Please tell the Kuriotates that pressing matters have forced me to pull my scout south. If he still desires contact, I hope he will venture south after passing Letum Frigus. I have encountered the Khazad, lead by Cull east of Letum Frigus, I have pointed them towards you and wished them well on their way. Hopefully their scouts survive the harsh wilderness.

Sareln"

East looks like the direction. Best of luck with the continued scouting. And with untangling the nature of good and evil .

Selrahc

My reply to Sareln:

Hey Sareln,

Okay thanks for the correction.
I've started moving Vanilla Ice eastwards, hopefully we'll both find Cull soon.

As for the Illians, Selrahc has been quite friendly, and was very kind in helping the two of us communicate and meet up.
But I can understand why you were worried about a rush from him, given the distances involved.
Darrell sure loaded the map in the Illian's favour with the placing of Letum Frigus.

Finally, Orthus...ouch. I haven't even considered him yet.
He's triggered by number of cities or population isn't he? If he's based on turn time then things could get very hairy soon.
Thanks for the advice on how many warriors needed, I'm going to start spamming some more from the next turn onwards.

I'll let you know if I do manage to find Cull. Any further info you can glean from him would be fantastic!

Kind Regards,
Pb, Blissfully Innocent Boy-King

It’s a bunch of nothing much.
I need time to consider both my options and whether I want to warn Sareln about the Illian’s current little ‘project’.

In my private FfH games I've seen a tower on a forest hill...

The ancient tower counts as an improvement, so you have to destroy it to build a mine/cottage on top. Therefore I assumed that like mines/cottages, forest couldn’t be present at the same time.

But now that you mention it, I think you might be right.
I think I do recall occasionally getting 75% defensive bonus in neutral territory (25% hill, 25% forest, 25% ancient tower).
Cheers for the correction.

.

[pocketbeetle]

If i may speak after being shot and left to rot............

Its good to see you running a C&D Dept, i know myself that i sturggle with the demographs in all my games and seing somone other than sullla write a detailed analasys of how to do it is good imho.

Of course you may Adlain () and I'm glad I'm not boring everyone with them.

I honestly didn't expect to be following tiles worked by some players on T30.
Initially I intended only to get an idea of other player's starts, and then to track their tech path via score changes.
But the combination of having Bob's demos from T0, early contact with Selrahc and Stasis has meant it's been both doable and useful.

It's certainly one thing to keep in mind if anyone intends to play as the Illians in a multiplayer game: early Stasis makes it very easy to track what you're doing.

----------------------------------------------------

In other news:

I’ve also decided on a theme for military unit names.
Magnificent Prizes on offer to whoever figures it out:

• One WHOLE cookie to the first correct guess.
  
• Additional 1 smilie if that guess is made within 2 unit names!
  
• Additional 3 smilies if that guess is made based on only the first unit name!
  

Needless to say, I don’t expect anyone to get it from the first two warriors. It’s reasonably subtle and not immediately Googleable.
But I’ve learned to be wary of underestimating other peoples' intelligence.

.

[Krill]

Footwear?

[pocketbeetle]

Footwear?

Lol, you had me scared posting that fast Krill.

Most definitely not!