[SPOILERS] Serdoas thread

[SilentConfusion]

Btw: I am trying to wrap my head about the demographics screen and the espionage system as I never used that before (not even remotely worthwhile in SP except for a quick estimation on how one's doing). I guess I've found two articles helping with the demographics screen (here and here) but I am not sure if there are

a) not better ones
b) if those are not outdated

I guess asking for out-of-game information regarding "technical points" of the game should be ok. If that is the case, does someone have some links for me regarding reading the demo-screen and how to back-calculate from the demographics?

I also think that asking information on how the game works is perfectly fine. I think that learning the game should be one of the main goals of these games. I agree that it's probably out place to comment on the other players from our experience, not that I really could as I haven't been around here long enough, but discussing those public articles and talking about game mechanics should be fine.

That Robi_D article about the demo-screen has been brought up-to-date with BtS 3.17, and I have confirmed that 3.19 didn't change any of that. I would feel free to use that information if you want as I haven't found any errors with it.

The other article is also one I have seen and it is quite good at understanding the way that beakers are calculated (it's helped me a lot in that area). I have noticed one thing that is no longer true in that article (must have been a patch fix): the overflow beakers are not calculated with the modifiers from the previous tech as it says. They are converted back to base beakers and recalculated with the modifiers of the new technology. This can be easily tested in SP mode if desired. If you switch to a technology with higher modifiers after the old one is finished you'll see more overflow beakers than otherwise expected.

The other thing I would suggest that you read if you're serious about learning demographics is the C&D thread from the Realms Beyond team in the Apolyton Demo Game. It is the single best source of information on the kinds of things you can do with the demoscreen if you're ambitious. It should be read anyway if just to appreciate the cleverness of the people of Realms Beyond. The link is here. The thread did not go obsolete when they were able to assign espionage as they originally thought. They just kept coming up with ways to learn more about their opponents. Sullla also has a very good write-up of the game and many of their strategies in this area make an appearance in his chronicle and it's also good reading. You may or may have not already seen that, but it can be found here.

[Serdoa]

Lets get started on the last player, Dazedroyalty



The first thing I realised was the relationship between Organized and the UB. The first thought I had about it was "Good god, that is a massive amount of civic upkeep and maintenance reduction - maybe much more then needed?". Thinking a little bit longer about it, I still believe that this is a great synergy here but maybe also sort of a one trick pony. If we happen to be on Noble level he would have given up one trait and a unique building for nothing. I guess that will not happen, as we will be on Monarch or even Emperor probably, but still, that is a gamble I would not have been willing to take. With this combination he is set up for expansion, but probably slower then Inca or Maya till he can get the Rathauses in play. On the other hand, if we happen to have toroidal world wrap and play on Emperor, he will be the only one teching and expanding. It seems this combination will really come down on what we get as map.

His starting techs are the worst combination we have in this game. Hunting will let him start with a scout and if he does not happen to have furs or deer near him he will not be able to do anything worthwhile with it. Mysticism does him no good at all. He does not need monuments due to being creative and although an early religion might be worth it with this combination, he needs many other techs first so that his workers can do something. Also there are chances he will lose out on it even if he delays growth and goes directly for it at the start. He might try it still, grow in the meantime and get a warrior out. Hard to say as I know nearly nothing about him. I guess we will see and till then I will assume that he has at least some kind of plan.

Looking at his UU, we have a strong defensive unit which is basically a 12 strenght unit against everything in the medieval age except for archers and longbows. This will make it hard to take them out if the attacker does not have siege (or in the field shock crossbowman). But Engineering is an expensive tech and also gives you the possibility to build castles. I do not think anyone would attack someone at this stage of the game anyway - at least not if he has not already gunpowder units. And if he does, Pikes and Longbows would probably be nearly as good. So, the defend nice but probably there is nobody to defend against. That leaves them as a possibility to attack. They are good defenders for an attack force, but as most people will defend with longbows, they will not be good to attack with. So, again, a good unit to defend with but thats it.

Guessing on his gameplan, I would assume that he tries to research CoL quickly, maybe even trying to grab Oracle for it. Though I think that might be a lost cause. Like I mentioned in the other posts, nearly anyone starts with Myst in this game, one of them with Ind. I would believe that most of them are better set up for a shot at Oracle. If we get a high maintenance map he will probably stay peaceful to leverage his organized trait and Rathauses as long as possible to really get a tech-lead on all others.

Summary:

+ big reduction on civic upkeep and maintenance
+ good defensive unit
- worst starting tech combination of all players

° probably no contender for an early religion
° no huge interest in Stonehenge
° interest in Oracle
° cost reduction on many buildings

[Serdoa]

Thank you Silent. I have read those threads about the Apolyton Demo-Game but had hoped that somewhere out there is... well, I am not sure what exactly. Thinking about it reading the demographics does come down to extrapolate from the data I have. And the demographics should not be that hard to read in this game with only 4 other players. I will see mine, I will see the rival best, the rival worst and that means I know already exactly 3 out of 5. That leaves two which have to be extracted from the rival average. And when I have that, it comes down to thinking what that together with score increases can mean.

I guess I will try it when the game starts and see if I can get a feel for it.

[Bobchillingworth]

Nice overview & analysis, man I'm happily lurking, but there's just too many threads now to comment on them all.

[Serdoa]

Yeah, I thought that would be the case as soon as I saw those many new games. Still no reason not to try to get you to leave me some comments

And to maybe get one more comment: I am currently searching for an explanation how score is calculated. I know that pop, techs, land area and probably some other stuff plays a role in that calculation but I am still missing some information:

- how is the population figure calculated? MH wrote in the Apolyton thread that population is either 4 or 5 points, but in a test game at immortal level/quick speed, it was 6 for first and second pop, 7 for the third, 6 for the fourth and 7 for the fifth

- land area seems to be even more complicated as even MH wrote that somehow in his game it was a figure of 1.333, but he also seemed not to know why it was that figure

- wonders seem to be 16 points in my game, it this for every wonder the same? and why does it say next to it 5/316 when i only have my palace?

- finally techs - Sullla wrote in his thread that every techs gives 6 points (though I think that is only true for ancient era techs?) unfortunately in my test game I got 17 points for 3 techs, all ancient era. that makes 2 times 6, 1 time 5

Maybe there is somewhere an article on it where it is condensed how the calculation formula works? Right now my best guess is that it takes into account the difficulty level somehow and for land area probably some calculation of the total available tiles minus the water tiles. I will stop for now to search around and hope for you lurkers.

[Serdoa]

Ok, I had in mind to stay away from the computer for today (I got already a headache from sitting in front of it) but then Krill sent the starting screenshot so I thought I will show it and write some thoughts about it.




We start on a plains hill. Settling in place will yield 5 river grassland tiles (1 forested), 3 forested grassland hills, 1 unforested grassland hill, 1 grassland ivory, 2 forested grassland, 1 grassland (on another landmass), 6 coast and 1 fish.

It does not seem from the first glance that it makes much sense not to settle in place. Right now I would even believe that the plains hill is there to make sure that we do exactly that. So why make that sure? Maybe all players are seperated by water? Might be but ... somehow I cannot believe it. So, as we can see another landmass, maybe we all are not too far apart in the middle and got a big island to expand to? That could be, but it would resemble PB2 a little bit. Not sure Krill would do that. So why are we on the water (and I am pretty sure that we are all on the coast as otherwise it would seem unfair to me)? Maybe it is a reversed PB2? Meaning we all start on an island and those are around a continent? Might be. Still, I am not sure if that fits. Guess I have to think about how to set up a map for 5 players without giving one an advantage by having him only border one player.

Well I guess what I also will do is open up a game, worldbuilder what I can see from that start and use that to at least have an easier time to decide where to settle.

[Krill]

1 grassland ivory

1 grassland forested ivory 2 food, 2 hammers.

[SilentConfusion]

I think these are smart questions to ask, and fortunately I can answer all or almost all of those questions. So here I go. Almost all of this was learned of from Realms Beyond members and pieced together on my own and self-tested, so only the explanation and verification and not the content is my own work. Perhaps some of the demo people would prefer to keep their tricks little-known, but I'm of the opinion that it's better to be open and share with everyone. I can do an article in a public place if one is desired as I have gathered all the information in this area that I could find and put it together for my own use as I couldn't find a good article that had it all. For now I will answer your direct questions as you were clever enough to ask. I still think this falls under game mechanics questions and is not related to your game in particular. I think questions about how the game works are always fair game.

And to maybe get one more comment: I am currently searching for an explanation how score is calculated. I know that pop, techs, land area and probably some other stuff plays a role in that calculation but I am still missing some information:

- how is the population figure calculated? MH wrote in the Apolyton thread that population is either 4 or 5 points, but in a test game at immortal level/quick speed, it was 6 for first and second pop, 7 for the third, 6 for the fourth and 7 for the fifth

The population score is map dependent. No way to tell ahead of time what each pop point will be worth. It depends on the total amount of food on the map. Hover over your score and look at the Pop score. It should have a fraction x/y. Each pop point is worth (5000/y). The reason for the variance is the way the number is rounded. As with most decimals in Civ it is FLOORed, meaning it is rounded down to the nearest integer. So say that (5000/y) gives you 4.61. If your pop is 1 your pop score is 4 (4.61 rounded down), but when you go to pop 2 your pop score is 9 (4.61 + 4.61 = 9.22 rounded down). This is an increase of 5 instead of 4. That's all that's happening here and with other scores that vary (they all do to an extent).

- land area seems to be even more complicated as even MH wrote that somehow in his game it was a figure of 1.333, but he also seemed not to know why it was that figure

Land Area is only a little more complicated than the Pop score. The Land Score is also map dependent, so again hover over score and note the Land fraction x/y. This time each land tile is worth (2000/y). The only thing that's a little trickier is that you don't get the score bonus for your land tiles until they've been inside your cultural borders for 20 turns. The rounding and point variance is exactly the same as described above.

- wonders seem to be 16 points in my game, it this for every wonder the same? and why does it say next to it 5/316 when i only have my palace?

Points per wonder don't vary from map to map. They are always worth (5000/310) each. This comes out to about 16.13 each. The rounding is the same so if you build enough eventually you'll get a gain of 17 instead of 16, not that most people build that many wonders, but it could happen. Not sure why it says 5/316 after palace score. It should say x/310 (I just checked to make sure). The number 310 is 5 * 62 (the number of wonders available to build), so in the fraction x/y, I think x is the number of wonders built * 5. But that's not your Wonder Score. When you settle your capitol your Wonder score is 16.

- finally techs - Sullla wrote in his thread that every techs gives 6 points (though I think that is only true for ancient era techs?) unfortunately in my test game I got 17 points for 3 techs, all ancient era. that makes 2 times 6, 1 time 5

You are correct that that is only for Ancient Era techs. Tech Score is not map dependent either and each tech is worth (2000/334) * Era. Ancient Era is 1, Classical Era is 2, etc. This works out to Ancient Era techs being worth about 5.99 points. This is why everyone starts with 11 points (before you settle your capitol you don't get Pop or Wonder points). 5.99 + 5.99 = 11.98. This is 11 points rounded down, but for a while after that techs will be worth a multiple of 6 points. So The Wheel is 5.99 points and Alphabet is 11.98 points. You add all the techs you have together and then round down to get the Tech Score.

Maybe there is somewhere an article on it where it is condensed how the calculation formula works? Right now my best guess is that it takes into account the difficulty level somehow and for land area probably some calculation of the total available tiles minus the water tiles. I will stop for now to search around and hope for you lurkers.

I have found descriptions of how score is calculated on CFC, but no real complete guide on the practical use of it. Some are taking to using NoScoreMod these days to eliminate this part of the game. I have mixed feelings as to whether that's a good thing or not.

The score is not dependent on Difficulty. The Land number for the map does indeed take the total available land tiles into account.

[Serdoa]

Thanks Krill. I was not sure from the screenshot.

What I also realized now is that if I settle in place, all forest grasslands will be 1 move away, which means my fast worker bonus will not help with the first chop. But losing the plains hill and a turn moving the settler (as it makes only sense to go 1N as two forested grasslands are 2N and 1N,1NW respectively) does make no sense.

I think I am desperately trying to find a reason to move my settler only because I am paranoid and find it suspicious that EVERYTHING on that starting location screams for settling in place. On the coast, with freshwater, on a plains hill, with 2 food resources and nothing in range what would be even remotely interesting. Moving inwards (West) only yields plains without resources. Moving north yields some more riverside grassland tiles (2 more) but gives up freshwater and loses a turn.

I guess, settle in place it is. If there is a better move, I would really be eager to here it as soon as it is possible without being a spoiler.

[Serdoa]

Thank you very much Silent - that really helped tremendously and I am sure I would have had searched at least the next week to find all that out. And also I would probably have invested the whole night whereas now I can go to bed