[Spoilers] Wang Kon of the Incans, or why I hate building monuments, by Krill

[Krill]

Hmmm...your thoughts on traits definately differ based on mine! For example, I thought Financial was weakened a good deal myself, even though it is unchanged by coast. And I thought Creative's nerf was basically non-existant: No half priced Libraries sucks, but +2 culture per turn is the real reason to take it period. I also don't like Imperialistic much, but that's inexperience talking I feel based on how you discuss it here. I also thought Aggressive was better than you thought.

I was also surprised nobody chose Washington: He gets +2 happiness/health in all cities, plus the Worker boost!

...Eh, might be talking too much for a non-dedlurker now. =X Sowwy.

Would you post this in the mod thread? If so, I don't really see how you are talking about anything that matters. I agree with you on CRE to an extent, but others (T-hawk, Cyneheard) have intimated that the Lib is an important part of CRE, so the views differ.

I like AGG, but ultimately, do you want to be building a ton of units in the early game? Not if you can help it, but AGG does give you that option to force your opponent to counter you, but even with vanilla preats, I couldn't do an awful lot in PBEM16.

IMP, well, Every settler is basically cheaper by half a worker, and you are going to build settlers, right? And you'll get the settlers out quicker. it's how you use it that makes it work. PB1 Joao of Inca is probably a good example of how to ignore the fact your land is weak and just make up for it with shit loads more pop, and PBEM5B shows how different expansion strategies work.

FIN, well, we'll see.

[scooter]

Interesting thoughts on the traits- thanks for sharing. Agree with the majority of what you've said, and I think I told you by chat that I think you came away with the best leader/civ combo out of anyone. The Charismatic comments interested me:

And CHM giving a striaght +2 happy? I really like that, but if you have happy nearby, or can grab a religion, you can survive without it, and you can't really stack whip anger that well anymore. It just seems a bit like a crutch, and you aren't going to be using the happy caps that much...but then again, in PPBREM16 I had a fair few cities butting up at happy caps at size 4, and who knows how usefull an extra 10 pop would have been?

I would kind of go the opposite way somewhat - I think the +2 happy is more valuable with the mod... My thinking is that with slavery nerfed, that means vertical city growth is more valuable than it used to be. It's more difficult to convert that pop into hammers, so you want to be working as many tiles as possible as that will often be better/equal to whipping them away. I don't know, it's all theoretical I guess until it actually gets played out, but I think under the mod, the Fin/Chm combo may be the strongest one (or certainly top3) in a vacuum for these reasons.

[Krill]

Interesting thoughts on the traits- thanks for sharing. Agree with the majority of what you've said, and I think I told you by chat that I think you came away with the best leader/civ combo out of anyone. The Charismatic comments interested me:




I would kind of go the opposite way somewhat - I think the +2 happy is more valuable with the mod... My thinking is that with slavery nerfed, that means vertical city growth is more valuable than it used to be. It's more difficult to convert that pop into hammers, so you want to be working as many tiles as possible as that will often be better/equal to whipping them away. I don't know, it's all theoretical I guess until it actually gets played out, but I think under the mod, the Fin/Chm combo may be the strongest one (or certainly top3) in a vacuum for these reasons.

Actually agree with this 100%, I just think I phrased it wrongly...OTOH, throwing down 2k words in 90 minutes, I'm always going to make mistakes. I think the one thing that would stop me saying FIN/CHM is a top X leader is this, though: on a map with low food, say, slightly lower food than PBEM16 due to more hills, you are going to have problems growing up to size 6-8 off of 4 food tiles, and would have to get granaries at 1pop ideally.

On low food maps, CRE, PRO, EXP and IMP all start to shine really, really strongly as it takes more turns before you can utilize the other traits advantages. On a PBEM17 high food map, well, what are you going to work for production when you have about 10 hills in 200 tiles? You could single pop slave more often, sure, but still need a granary to make that really efficient. Kinda wish TT had taken Churchill tbh.

[Gold Ergo Sum]

The mod may suit me because I've always worked too many mines and not utilized slavery enough. I definitely agree with scooter's analysis.

[mackoti]

Just a tought, even you are whiping still charismatic is beter because second pop whip get penality so beter whip 1 pop and more offen.

[luddite]

PHI I'm always going to hold is a mostly wasted trait, the only time I've ever seen it really used properly is with Egypt - getting an Academy a few turns earlier doesn't matter much when you can save gold, and an early shrine can save you hundreds of hammers on religion spreads, but after that, I think it only really helps you in specific situations (need a GA for a bomb, or running SoL/Merc and pushing GP everywhere for multiple GAs once all of hte bars are full).

Well said, that's exactly how I feel about PHI. It's gimicky, and not very useful overall. The only thing it's really good for is getting Oxford up really fast.

I mostly agree with you about the other traits too, although I still think the culture barracks are silly, and I think this mod does make a significant nerf to FIN. It basically triples the amount of time necessary for a cottage without a river to become good.

[Krill]

(1:45:17 PM) Darrell: you are getting whale, and you'll like it

[Lewwyn]

I hope you like blubber...

[Krill]

I'm just so screwed. I need Sailing to hook whales.

[scooter]

Actually agree with this 100%, I just think I phrased it wrongly...OTOH, throwing down 2k words in 90 minutes, I'm always going to make mistakes. I think the one thing that would stop me saying FIN/CHM is a top X leader is this, though: on a map with low food, say, slightly lower food than PBEM16 due to more hills, you are going to have problems growing up to size 6-8 off of 4 food tiles, and would have to get granaries at 1pop ideally.

On low food maps, CRE, PRO, EXP and IMP all start to shine really, really strongly as it takes more turns before you can utilize the other traits advantages. On a PBEM17 high food map, well, what are you going to work for production when you have about 10 hills in 200 tiles? You could single pop slave more often, sure, but still need a granary to make that really efficient. Kinda wish TT had taken Churchill tbh.

Okay yeah I do agree with this for sure. This is why I commented that I thought it was one of the best combos "in a vacuum" because yeah, some variables like a low-food map would definitely take it down a notch.