SPOILERS-Tatan's PBEM10 Thread

[Tatan]

No time to update, so I'll leave you with this:



Looking much better.

[Tatan]

Tatan,

I wonder whom you will use your troops against? As you have built up quite a massive number I guess those are not meant for HR happiness. I can imagine that I might look more tempting then Cyneheard but at the same time, if he goes unchallenged, he will run away with the game, whereas I am running dry soon anyway (not enough land and a specialist economy which won't be strong enough in the end game to compete). I understand that we did not have that much contact in game - or nearly none at all, but still, I think I would better serve you as ally then as enemy.

So, if you want we can talk how to go on from here. If you instead are still want to attack... well, let me know at least, so I can prepare a welcome how it is deserved

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Looks like I just got called. Dammit. Alright, the way I see it, three options:

1) Tell Serdoa I'm coming for his blood.
Honest, but also suicidal. While iron gives my a huge tactical advantage, he can still whip out a shitload of archers and HAs to oppose me; and the whole point of this attack was to gain some breathing room at only a small cost.

2) Tell Serdoa that I'm planning to attack someone else or that I don't plan to attack anyone.
This would probably work the best... but I don't think I can do it. I like to think of myself as honest about most things, and this is too big a deal to simply lie about. Plus, as a metagaming point, it'll really kill Serdoa's interest in this game pretty quick. AND paint myself as untrustworthy to the other players.

3) Stall.
Easy, and also likely to fail miserably. A compromise between the top two solutions that manages to have the disadvantages of both and the advantages of neither.


So... what in the hell do I do? I could pull a Sandover and start making demands, which is not entirely a bad idea, but it makes me seem arrogant, and if it actually works all these soldiers go to waste [well, I suppose I could attack Meatbalz, but meh].

Truly, I am stumped on this one. I guess I'm leaning towards a mixture of #3 and 1 right now [i.e. wait like a turn, and then say, "Yeah, I am. Sorry!"]. And yet, that is TOTALLY SUICIDAL from a military standpoint [you can get quite a lot of soldiers in three or for turns]. Arg. I suppose another option would be to simply ignore the message and go on radio silence mode, but there is no way Serdoa would buy that. In addition to the fact that only a moron would buy that, Serdoa could easily me posting in my thread, and consequently conclude that the radio silence is obviously not me being busy but me confirming his email. BLAH! Why can't this be more like my math class, where you get an equation and then you solve it or derive it or WHATEVER, and then there is always AT LEAST 1 right answer!

Curses, I am going to drive myself insane with my diplo-ranting.


Adlain... help?


And and to help judge the situation, for both Adlain and the lurkers, all my troops [except for 1-2 chariots], as of the last EOT, are completed; however, due to some movement mismanagement, it should be at least three turns before the units are in position outside of Serdoa's borders.


Oh, and also:

The attack forces look good to me, I assume we have 0 exp on any of our troops..... Future note to add some barracks if that is the case to our city builds.

How much scope do we have for whipping before we start striping our citys of useful tiles?? I know we have the pop to whip.

We have a barracks in every core city and Aren, so all the units in the main attack force [and a few of the chariots, too] can promote once. I'm working some unimproved forest tiles right now [I know, I know], so whipping is definitely an option; I stalled on using it before because we are only just running out of whipping-unhappiness from the forges.


EDIT: At least I can be happy about my 333 posts!

[Tatan]

Well, turns out diplo is much more complex than I previously thought.

Serdoa sent me another email after my non-response:

Tatan,

I haven't received any answer on my below email but did get some information about possible daggers which might hit your back when you go to war with me. I couldn't care less to be honest, after all, you intend to attack me and that opens up a possibility to let you bleed for it without really losing much if the promises are kept. But it would make others stronger which I simply don't want to win the game, no matter what my place will be.

So, maybe you do want to think about if war is your best option. Do you see other possibilities?

An answer to this email would be appreciated - after all, we still can keep our manners, can't we?

Kind regards,
Serdoa

Not sure what he meant by daggers in my back; he's either bluffing, or someone is a RAT! Although, I don't think I have anything to fear at the moment; NAP with Cynheard is to T95, and no one would possibly be foolish enough to sail half-way across the world to attack me... right? Hm. Well, since Adlain seems to be busy, I go ahead and respond.

Well. You have shown exceptional frankness, so I will do the same. Yes, I was planning to attack you. My reasoning is thus:

I have run out of room to expand, so of course I am looking for more land, which makes you and Cyneheard the only logical choices. I also have had good relations with Cyneheard up to this point, on top of the NAP we have signed, so he is not an option. This leaves you, who on top of being the only logical choice left have also have a weak military and plenty of wonders to steal. I hope you can understand why this would lead me to conclude that war with you would be a smart idea. However, since you found out, this makes attacking you a much less attractive possibility; I don't want to conquer a bunch of cities whipped down to the ground and brimming with archers. And, of course, you have now dangled the possibility of someone else attacking me.

So would you care to propose a deal for preemptive peace? I don't want to sound like a extortionist, but since I already have an army and you could be lying about "possible daggers which might hit [my] back", frankly I am still leaning towards attacking you. But I could be swayed. You mentioned that attacking you would result in others winning who you would rather not win; mind sharing who those people were?

I look forward to a response, and which try to be less tardy in my own next time.

-Tatan

I have no idea what I'm doing. No plan. Believe me, where this game will go is going to surprise me as much as anybody!

Since I think I will have some free time tonight [I HAD BETTER], a legitimate turn report soon! [lol, notice half the posts I make are promises for more reports?]

[Adlain]

Not sure what he meant by daggers in my back; he's either bluffing, or someone is a RAT! Although, I don't think I have anything to fear at the moment; NAP with Cynheard is to T95, and no one would possibly be foolish enough to sail half-way across the world to attack me... right? Hm. Well, since Adlain seems to be busy, I go ahead and respond.

Umm, Whoops - i did read your Post, and made a note to reply once i got onto my home PC......... Yea that didnt happen - Sorry


The Diplo you sent was fine imho - we where somewhat backed into a corner, our element of suprise was already vaporising infront of our eyes so we may aswell put our cards on the table while STILL Building up ready for the attack. Personaly i think we could whip up a good defence force on our mainland atleast to protect our core if we where to be sneakattacked in our backlines so i vote to attack Serdoa still .

And you know what they say - its better to burn out than fade away.

[Tatan]

@Adlain: glad we agree. I think I'm starting to grow into my choice of Napoleon.



Going to Civil Service next, and then I will do a Triple Civic Swap.




This gives a pretty good idea of what I'm up to right now. Darujhistan is sneaking in settlers for those last two spots on my island. Pale, Aren, and next turn Ehrlitan will be rushing out Buddhist Temples for happiness. Genabaris and Mott are working on building up my NW forces a bit; I plan to ferry an ax and a spear to Monopoly to act as an extra garrison, and then I will keep the galley off the coast of Canasta with an ax and a spear inside to act as an emergency garrison for all nearby areas. Canasta, A&A, and Monopoly are all working on infrastructure, the former two with chops, the latter with whips. And, uh, that's it; I have no real further plans because I still don't quite know if I am attacking Serdoa or not. If I do, enough units are in place that I can do it next turn.

One other incidental thing: two Great Scientists have been born over the last two turns. Uh-oh.


Oh, and how could I forget? DIPLO TIME!

Long time no hear. Congrats on the military build-up: most impressive. I wanted to broach a delicate subject with you, but first I need to ask that everything I mention is for your ears only. Please don't mention this, or hint at it, to anyone else. I know in the end you could do so without my knowledge but I hope you'll be above that.

What I wanted to ask is: it's clear your military build-up is aimed at Serdoa who is pretty defenseless. I was chatting to CH about this and claimed I had "enough on my hands" with TT going nutso on my other flank. That's still true. But I might be able to knock out a few troops quickly, probably a couple more than I thought a few turns ago. As you no doubt know Serdoa doesn't currently have iron, and I've settled our island in such a way as to claim both. That's a bit besides the point - I don't expect you to jump into bed with me & share military plans when you and I have spent the whole game at arm's length.

What I wanted to ask is something else: have you made adequate arrangements to ensure Cyneheard doesn't take advantage of your (presumed) attack on Serdoa? The reason I ask is twofold:
1) as you know, I've viewed CH as a runaway threat all game, and his lead is only increasing. Check the demogs to see his food & pop & rsch. They're skyrocketing. Your power is clearly superior but if most of your troops are away, and CH knows of your plans...
2) I've had a couple of conversations with CH. He hasn't told me much (although I do know - or this is CH's side of the story - he got iron from you for very little in return). But I also picked up he has tight relations with Ad Hoc, and a war between them would be unlikely.

Again, please keep this confidential, particularly from CH. I don't expect you to tell me anything. It's clear you don't like me (even TT has OB with me). If you are planning on attacking Serdoa, your timing looks to be great right now. You're likely to benefit greatly if you can pull it off and hats off if you do. Just please be very wary of Cyneheard.

MB

Hm. Don't understand what he was trying to say with the "knocking out a few troops" thing. But as for the rest of it: apparently Meatbalz is either genuinely concerned about Cyneheard [not unduly], or is desperately grasping for an ally in the inevitable show-down between the two front-runners. Probably a mix of both. Well, honestly, the combined warnings of Meatbalz and Serdoa, apparently independent of each other, is enough to put me at unease; Cyneheard has moved back into the Liked But Vaguely Distrusted category. Meatbalz has made quite a lot of effort to be open with me, so I try to return the favor [hey, doesn't cost me anything right now].

Well... this is interesting. I appreciate your trust; sorry if I've come off as "at arm's length", but the Great Lighthouse is a scary thing. It does seem, though, that Cyneheard is rising. I have no fear of him at the moment, because we have a NAP until Turn 95, but I will watch the Power graph for any signs of danger.

You have guessed my plans against Serdoa exactly; I must have been pretty obvious, because Serdoa guessed them, too, and emailed me about it. We are currently in negotiations.

I don't really know anything else to say... it seems that you and Cyneheard are turning into Arch-Nemeses in this game, and I don't want to choose between either of you quite yet.

-Tatan

So basically, as a result of all this diplomacy recently, I'm scared. Scared of Serdoa going into Whip-Fest-O'Rama. Scared of Meatbalz and his stolen lighthouse. Scared of Ad Hoc randomly launching a raid into my territory [improbable, but possible!]. And most of all...

Scared that Cyneheard is actually an evil mastermind.



And yes, that picture was in fact necessary, because for inexplicable reasons I find it hilarious.

[Tatan]

Tatan,

I can fully understand why you intended to attack me - after all, I am the natural choice. Well, better said, I was. If you look at the power graph, Cyneheard and I are pretty much equal. But I do have the economic power to get to better troops faster - put differently: You would have to wade through protective LBs if you would attack me. Together with Catapults I think those are enough to defend and even if not, at least enough to hurt your advance considerably and then it starts to get doubtful if you really win that much with a war against me - it's easy to lose out if your war simply does take longer then the wars of the others. And that we will have a WW is pretty obvious.

So, I think even if nobody would dagger you, I am not that tempting anymore. And at the same time, you make it really easy for Cyneheard, who is already leading the scoreboard, to take advantage of that fight by either aquiring even more land on the other side of the world or ... well, your flank on his side surely wouldn't have enough troops to withstand an attack, would it?

As I don't want Cynheard to win, simply for some of his actions in this game, I want us to work together. For this - and only this - reason I am offering the following:

- NAP till a certain turn (tbd which turn is preferred)
- 50 gold

and if you attack Cyneheard

- 5 HAs

for free as well as the possibility to buy more indirect military assistance like high quality troops, for example: Macemen will be up in some turns.

You probably had something else in mind, but like you said, since I found out about your plans, attacking me is not really that attractive anymore. In all honesty, I wouldn't have offered anything except for the NAP if it was not that I don't want Cyneheard win. I could simply have waited for your attack, defended with my LBs, waited for the dagger to hit and then taken some of your cities. I know that you have an army waiting - but you are at a techologial disadvantage which you have to try to make up for with higher production, at a promotional disadvatage against a protective leader, at a warfare disadvantage by being the attacker and finally at a world-politics disadvantage by having a neighbour in Cyneheard which wants your land.

Kind regards,
Serdoa

...:\ This came off as a bit arrogant to me, but of course most of that is probably from Serdoa's not being a native speaker. I might actually consider this deal without completely rejecting it out of hand, if it weren't for the fact that I have a NAP with Cyneheard until T95. So, longbows and cats, eh? Either he's lying, or I managed to wait too long before attacking.

Of course, even if he does have them, he will have to whip like mad to get a lot up in time. So what is my preferred course of action? Rush in and attack. Screw negotiations. If Cyneheard really is planning to attack [entirely possible], I will have adequate forces by then [I'll probably be unlocking maces around that time, too].

Speaking of which, one thing I found interesting:

for free as well as the possibility to buy more indirect military assistance like high quality troops, for example: Macemen will be up in some turns.

Macemen require iron, which Serdoa doesn't seem to have right now. But the longer he doesn't know that, the better! Even if I do get into a protracted war, what is he going to counter my mace/cat stacks with? X-bows and knights both require iron, and gunpowder is pretty far away.

Of course, there is the issue of Cyneheard running away. But, you know what? If he's already in the lead, there is no way I can counter him with my existing land; I need more anyway, and Serdoa is the easiest way to get it.

Alea iacietur, I suppose. Unless, of course, Adlain vehemently disagrees.

[Tatan]

Oh, and on a completely different topic:

Game Mechanics Question

When I research Astronomy and obsolete monuments, do I still get +1 from them?

I want to know whether I should go ahead and build one in my new cities as opposed to using Buddhism to pop the borders.

[Adlain]

Personaly i say Screw it and attack anyways.

My reasoning for this is

1) i beleive (from what i can see) that Serdoa is Bluffing to some degree. He has been wonder hoarding, there is no denying that fact and as of T81 he only has 100 points lead with us having no wonders and a fair sized army (number 1 in demos and beating last place by 70K (who i beleve to be Serdoa tbh) and even the second place we have a slight lead on.)

2) He has built the GLib iirc and that means he has diverted into the top half of the tech tree, that tells me he isnt going to have had alot of time to get all the militery techs. i highly doubt he has Fudlism (Longbows), Construction (Catapults) AND be well on the way towards CS and Mech for Macemen. He has also spent time to get HBR for those horse Archers.

So Meh, i say we call him on it, Protective Archers or LB will be a pain in the butt, but the longer we wait the less likley we will win anything through this action. And becides, someone has to make a tactical error at some point - we may aswell give it a shot

[T-hawk]

When I research Astronomy and obsolete monuments, do I still get +1 from them?

No. The only thing an obsolete monument produces is culture.

[Krill]

Oh, and on a completely different topic:

Game Mechanics Question

When I research Astronomy and obsolete monuments, do I still get +1 from them?

I want to know whether I should go ahead and build one in my new cities as opposed to using Buddhism to pop the borders.

I don't think so, from PBEM2.