[No players] Big epic lurking - PB74

[Mjmd]

An Astro landmass of my own. Half expect to find Commodore's settlements there.

I actually did laugh out loud when I got to this part.

I will note Gav has room for like 5 filler cities (mostly former enemy territory) and he chose to make one of his islands into a mega city instead of 2. And he doesn't yet have astro cities.

He will a descent bit of astro land but if he can get it settled and productive I think he is easily in the drivers seat. Have to see what Commodore and Pin do of course. Commodore has already taken a bit of the astro land that way and it seems like that is what he wants to do so maybe he goes for more. As long as Commodore keeps even in tech Kremlin whips will let him rule the seas. Gav though is even in tech with a lot of land still coming out of revolt / rebuilding pop. Will Mig be relevant? Find out next time!

[Mjmd]

Gav getting to hit a lot of Pics catapults is brutal. I still wonder why he didn't do something either against SD or Gav.

I don't hate Pin going to conquer part of the small continent. Its going to be a delicate balance of taking a lot fast and not immediately getting into a war vs Mig/Ginger with rifles.

[Krill]

I don't entirely disagree with Gavs point about Pin being thrown back into the sea, but I would point out that this is a further delay on Egypt actually capturing the rest of the continent. Given their state, probably wiser to, you know, actually capture uncontested land.

Regarding Gav, he probably has another out, to try and hold on the sea, and build a production base and just roll through the entire continent. Commodores empire is sparse and separated, and at risk of being split by smart naval play with limited resources, and no one has the capability to stop Gav aiming for Domination. OTOH if he truly tries to take Commodore apart on the ocean, he might lose to the tech pace to Destroyers and the speed of indutrialisation of Darius with Kremlin rushbuy.

[Mjmd]

For those people complaining about the map balance couple of quick points. Here is what was asked for.

1) Big and small - to note this is by Commodore who is famous for liking random maps and a game with huts and events on. Who has actively complained about this map being too artificial even though his area is largely natural.
2) more balanced than PB66
3) 8-10 cities

On those metrics this map was perfect!  

Now I don't know how much of a jerk move it was for me to step in and do more changes than Q would have done. But I really wanted that #2 especially hot off of playing PB66. I just wanted to make sure there was some neighbor balance. On a random base map you aren't getting perfect neighbor balance, but some is better than nothing.

I did make more changes and Q was right that there is a "why did you make one change when you didn't make another thing mentality". Ya there are some issues I wish I had fixed, but people also have to remember this 19 player map was made in about one and a half weeks. I also very much did not think people WANTED a completely balanced or even approximately balanced map. That being said in hindsite (and again 19 player map made quick) here is what I would have changed.

1) Scooters start - I didn't add much land this map. Again despite Commodores complaints I did try to use already existing natural islands. Now I added a couple of tiles some islands (and sunk some), but mostly natural land. That being said, Scooters start needed more land. Greening up a desert, subtracting a player who could only expand into him, and giving him more resources was not enough for this start. About the huts, ya I was never going to remember to balance those and again not asked for, but in hindsite I would given him one to pop a map from. But ya I would have liked to add just a little more land south. Not sure if the sea should have been a lake and glue on an island to the bottom or if it should have been filled in, but something like that. His island also should have added forests (the original island didn't and I just missed fixing) / instead of adding more land south island should have been a two city island.

2) Xist start - event though he never used that island should have been a 3 city island not a 2 (and Gav only put 1 here). Also, he needed another food or two (instead of a banana and then add one). Should the gem have been moved so  he wasn't tempted to move capitals? I don't think so, but maybe considering it also moved him unknowingly into copper.

3) I didn't move capitals if I thought neighbor and distance balance were ok and while I think the island distance was ok between Plemo and Tarkeel it was the shortest on the map. This one is more in hindsite than something I think I ever would have noticed naturally (it took me until halfway through the game to think of), but their start and island should have been moved to the other side of the curve. This also would have meant Q and I didn't disagree about the gold and it would have meant they couldn't rush Dreylin.

And honestly that is it, considering what was asked for and that I felt I was already maybe doing more balancing than Commodore would like.

[Dreylin]

Things I’ve generally noticed:

1) most players will find something about a map that they don’t like and many will then complain about it.

2) some players get fixated on it and lean on it as an excuse for their decisions.

3) a player group will happily ask for a “natural” or “lightly balanced” map and then many of those individuals will complain about any minor imbalances.

4) neighbor luck is probably more important, but we typically don’t try to balance that at all.

Has there ever been a game here where the map has been revealed from the start? That could be an interesting variation adding start locations as the first wheel through a snake, then you can have some choice over neighbours and react to their civ/leader selections.

[yuris125]

We had small AW games with fully revealed maps, and starts included in the snake pick (Pitboss 50 and 68)

[Qgqqqqq]

Every time anyone but Commodore complains about the map my inclination is to tell them that you fought for the amount of balancing that did happen, and I mostly wanted to let it lie.

I haven't thought too deeply about everything, but I do feel like Amicaloas start was a bit weak.

On a different topic, Gavs desire for Pin to invade Com feels like incredibly motivated reasoning.

[Qgqqqqq]

Can people look at DZ's thread? It appears the request is based off assuming a turn split where Minguelito didn't assume one was required. The complication is that asking Ming about it would alert them to the invasion. My assumption is that Min didn't know it was coming.

[xist10]

In the same vein, Gav wanted SD to invade Picca - I'm not sure if SD does it, but I'm sure Gav doesnt stop after Picca and invades SD next.

I think, that I was tempted to settle for the gems is not that bad - I think Rome was lost a bit of snowballing, because I lost 1,5 foodressources.
The "problem" was, that I settled for copper. I was able to get the first axemen really fast. - Thanks to the gem mine, I think the time constraint were more or less worker turns, so a tech found in a hut shouldn't be much faster.

I'm sure, that scooter and Gav had no ability to defend against a rush - okay, this is maybe a problem of research priorities. But still, GT needed the second worker to finish the road fast enough.

[xist10]

Can people look at DZ's thread? It appears the request is based off assuming a turn split where Minguelito didn't assume one was required. The complication is that asking Ming about it would alert them to the invasion. My assumption is that Min didn't know it was coming.

I'm think, no war, no double move. It's maybe a bit sketchy and could fall under timer games, but I would still allow this.
But I know, you here at RB are a bit more invested in sequential play - I'm sure, I read a discussion about turnorder during enforced peace for this reason.


- Wait a second, Mig is still at war ? In this case, I see no problem, because my problem would be timer games, which aren't really possible, if you are already in a turn order.