[SPOILERS] - scooter's thread

[scooter]

Alright, time for a diplo update. First, here's the correspondence I've had with Dazedroyalty so far:

Dazedroyalty,

Greetings! No that is not a mistake - we have actually met in-game as of the beginning of Turn4 which I just played a little bit ago. You'll see my warrior just to the south of your capital when the turn gets around to you. It seems we are VERY close together off the start, though I have yet to meet anyone else. The map seems to promise a very interesting start so far, so I'm sure there will be many more surprises for us!

How have things been for you thus far? Have you met anyone else yet? I've got to run after I send this, but don't hesitate to catch me on chat one of these times if you'd like to talk directly at all.

scooter

Hah, I think I got him sweating a little bit, because here's his response:

Scooter,

I would like to make a simple proposal in order to establish a good working relationship. Since we are so close to each other it will beneficial to have some reassurances of peace. Personally, I'm not a big fan of NAPs, though I'd be open to considering that if you would like. Instead, I would suggest that we commit to not moving directly next to each other's borders for the first 20 turns. If you'd be interested in such an arrangement or would like to propose another, let me know.

Do you have any thoughts about the map? It's still too early to tell but I can see that there is at least some kind of islands going on.

Dazed

I decided to responded positively to him, as I'd rather not make an aggressive move like that unless I know I'll get the kill:

Dazed,

Sorry it took so long to respond - normally I'm much quicker than that! Internet & cable got KO'd the other day by a storm, and wonderful AT&T has yet to fix it. Actually played the turn yesterday from a McDonald's parking lot.

Actually I don't like NAPs either. I haven't signed one in PBEM3 yet despite that game hitting the AD years. I'm not saying I'll never sign one, but I just think they do more harm than good sometimes. I'm going to take a stab at your current situation - you don't want me moving my warrior in so that you have to change from a worker to a warrior. Did I get it?? Teasing aside, I'd be happy to sign that deal. I don't see much use in making a move like than and creating a game-long enemy, so I'll agree to that instead.

Couple thoughts on the map... It seems like some sort of ring map maybe? It's heavily modified though, and I think that's evidence by our surrounding lands. The land directly to your south is like 95% identical to the land directly to the south of my capital. Did you also explore to your north or what have you seen so far? I've just come along the coast, so I don't know how big the landmass is that we're on. I'm guessing you have an island right off your coast as well like I do?

scooter

Now here's where I could potentially be evil. You'll notice I said above "unless I could get the kill." Well maybe I still could. If I agree to this (which I did), he'll keep his worker in the queue. This means when it gets back to me, it could play out like this, with turn A being my turn, and B being his turn:

4a: I made contact with him, while 2 tiles away from his border. He proposes deal which I just accepted
4b: He keeps worker in the queue and ends turn
5a: I violate deal, moving one turn away from his border on the "corner tile"
5b: He freaks out, queues up warrior due in 3 turns.
6a: I declare war, move within one tile of his capital
6b: Warrior due in 2
7a: Dazed gets KO'd

This would be a somewhat harsh back-stab, but the beauty is there's a decent chance no one would know about it. If he hasn't met anyone yet, then he'll never be able to tell anyone that I unleashed such a dastardly backstab. Now if he HAS met someone, then that might complicate things slightly, but I could always deny it or put a twist on it. I could also tell him I've met someone, and see if he'll tell me if he's met anyone.

Normally I wouldn't make a move quite like this, but if we're ALL this cramped, it might be THE move to make. I really would feel bad knocking him out this early though, especially since he was the one who wanted to start a game like this. This is the #1 thing that might prevent me from making a move like this anyways. I guess I could offer him to join me as a dedicated lurker and team member of a sort, but that's a weak consolation.

Okay lurkers - give me your thoughts on this. Is a move like the one I described above too much? Would that be a smart and opportunistic move or a really dirty one?

[Bobchillingworth]

It would be a move that would be really fun to read about



I wouldn't worry too much about feelings, as hardly anyone has any time invested in their empires and so should lack the corresponding emotional attachment, plus there's probably enough interest to start yet another PBEM if he feels sore. From a gameplay prespective, who can say...

[athlete4life10]

Would that be a smart and opportunistic move or a really dirty one?

ummm....Both

[scooter]

I'm really struggling with this one honestly - definitely the hardest decision I've had to make in Civ. I'm leaning towards letting him live honestly. Thing is, if this was a game with any other community (like CFC) I'd take this move in a heartbeat because I'm convinced it's the best I can do for my civ. I'm just hesitant to make this kind of move...

Also I feel bad about it because it's the only game he's in currently and he was the one who brought up the idea. If he was in 3 other games, sure I'd KO him like this. He'd get over it pretty quickly. After 4 different games just started up though, I'm not sure he could start up another one so easily... There's also the possibilty he could personally hold it against me, which would be disappointing too because I've played MP with him more than once now and he seems like a nice guy.

I've got 5 hours to decide, because that's when I'll play the turn. Actually if Dazed plays in the next 20 minutes, I may play right away. I might let him live, which I'm sure will disappoint lurkers as when I'm lurking games, I always root for the moves that will stir up controversy because it's fun to watch .

Any more lurker input? Anyone? Turn just came in so I have to decide if I'm going to play before my lunch break finishes...

[scooter]

I opened up the save and realized my decision was made for me. Details coming in a few minutes...

[scooter]

4a: I made contact with him, while 2 tiles away from his border. He proposes deal which I just accepted
4b: He keeps worker in the queue and ends turn
5a: I violate deal, moving one turn away from his border on the "corner tile"
5b: He freaks out, queues up warrior due in 3 turns.
6a: I declare war, move within one tile of his capital
6b: Warrior due in 2
7a: Dazed gets KO'd

I've bolded the key parts here. This is what I get for writing that up in the morning when I'm not fully awake AND when I have no game access. I opened the save and saw this:



Since I've given it away alread, I think you can see the problem. Here's a picture of SleepingMoogle's warrior to my south to demonstrate with full tile visibility:



I'm on the same tile as SleepingMoogle is. If I take the route outlined in red, my calculations were off by ONE turn. That means when I got within 1 tile, his warrior would have 1 turn remaining, and he would hit enter and the warrior would appear. So I can't perform this backstab even if I wanted to, which thankfully makes the decision for me. If I was on the circled tile I could pull this off, but it's the only tile I could do it from. When I was doing this all in my head, I thought it was possible, but it's not. Settles that.

(note: I've had correspondence with SleepingMoogle already that I'll post here in a bit. I've just delayed posting it here because the Dazed situation was a bigger deal)

So instead I kept with the deal and kept a 1 tile buffer, showing me this:



Another corn, but it's unreachable with a coastal city.

[scooter]

Correspondence with SleepingMoogle:

It appears that fate has decided for us to share origins on the same landmass. The Malazan Empire greets its northern neighbour, and wishes you good fortune and prosperity in the years to come!

-Emperor SleepingMoogle I

SleepingMoogle,

Greetings! I hope you've been off to a nice start thus far! Have to say, going into this game I had not expected to be making contact already on Turn 4! Should be an interesting game for sure. Anything interesting happen for you yet? I mean besides meeting someone on Turn 4!

Well rather than leave it up in the air, I'll just say it. I see your warrior situation playing out a few possible ways:

1. You send your warrior straight at my capital. I have to change from a worker to a Quecha, which is annoying. Due to the amount of shields at my capital, it would finish on time for your warrior to arrive, so your warrior could, at best, choke. I also have combat 1 on my Quechas, so I'm at an advantage in warrior-warrior combat.
2. You warrior rush me. This only succeeds if I don't know it's coming, but I'll be watching demos. This option means we both lag behind while everyone else is peacefully expanding
3. We happily continue on in peace, using this as a good starting point for relations.

Sorry to be so upfront and to the point, but I figured I'd skip the formalities and cut straight to the point since I'll be playing my turn in a few hours, and by then I'll probably need to know if I need to change my build queue. For what it's worth, I'm hoping for option #3 .

scooter

Hey there scooter,

The previous message may have been a tad formal, but it was (and is) my hope to keep the diplomacy in this game separate from PBEM 3, even though they may end up being carbon copies of each other. In any case, meeting another Civ this early has been the most interesting thing to happen by far since I never expected to start this close to someone else.

While I won't deny that I considered the possibilities of early military action to give some elbow room, I ended up discarding them for much the same reasons you noted in your message. There's no way a quick attack would succeed due to the game speed and the lack of surprise, and early wars would just slow both of us down. Instead, forging diplomatic ties and allowing each other to grow would definitely have my preference. If other Civs started next to each other as well, let them fight it out instead while we happily establish a tech lead.

It is probably way too early to touch on anything but non-aggression towards each other, but I would be interested in exploring further opportunities once we have a better idea of the map and the geo-political situation. The one thing we may want to discuss soon is what to do with the small strip of land that lies between our capitals. Unfortunately I cannot send you any maps in this game until Paper tech, but until you scout it yourself, I can say that while it would be technically possible to plant two cities, they would be in a constant culture war with each other, and never have the potential to really become big cities.. Realistically, there's only room for one.

I hope that this message is sufficient to not give you pause having my scouting warrior near your borders. Perhaps we can exchange scouting information with each other, as I'm a bit undecided whether I should seek passage around your border and continue towards the north, or turn west instead. For reference, my Warrior is currently on a hill two tiles south southern border.

Best wishes,
Emperor SleepingMoogle I

SleepingMoogle,

I actually have said the same thing in my thread - that PBEM3 diplomacy and this game's diplomacy will be completely separate. Good relations in one would not prevent bad (or good) relations in the other, and vice versa.

I figured you would at least consider it - in fact I probably would be disappointed in you if you didn't at least weigh the possibility, but glad you agree. I've always felt that making a good friend early on is critical to these games, so I would also be interested to see how things shake out between us as the game progresses. I figured if you met me that quickly that we would be a bit cramped, so I'm not surprised that you say there's only room for one city. I guess the big question that I don't even know myself is how much land there is west of us and how critical is the island that I'm seeing off of my coast. Do you have one right off your coast as well? 5 gold says you do . I scouted directly north, probably taking the same path you did...

In the interest of goodwill, I will say that I met Dazedroyalty on the same turn in the same manner you did. The land south of his capital is nearly identical to the land south of my capital, and if I'm understanding the tile you are talking about, I'm actually currently sitting on the same tile near him. In fact, I'm betting the land I've scouted that way will look very similar to the land you've seen to my south - green land, couple forests, some fish, and a river a few tiles inland. This has some interesting implications as far as the map goes...

I have one request if you don't mind, as this is a request Dazed made of me... Would you mind not coming right at my borders for the early part of the game? Meaning staying at least one tile away from my borders for at least the first 15-20 turns? Or just until my borders pop again basically - can't remember how quickly that comes on quick speed.

scooter

Scooter,

From your words, it does indeed look like all of our starts have been similar (yes, there is land just east of my capital across a narrow canal, but demographics already hinted at this, I'm sure ;-) ). It's also interesting that Dazedroyalty is directly north of you. So far no one has approached me from the south (although this would be the turn for them to come out of the fog I suppose), but it definitely sounds possible. Perhaps everyone has started in one vertical line, with duplicate lands to their east and west? In any case, if you'd like to let Dazedroyalty know of my presence, I'd appreciate it and would be happy to return the favor and share the general location of your lands to other Civs met if you so desire.

With Dazedroyalty to your north, my preference would be to move my Warrior around your lands and establish contact and gain in-game benefits for meeting other Civs. If I keep my Warrior at least one tile from your border, will this be acceptable to you?

-Emperor SleepingMoogle I

SleepingMoogle,

Yeah I'm trying to figure out what's up with the land as well... Dazed just told me that he found a west coast to the land we're on, so I wonder if it's a strip that's 7ish tiles wide with maybe islands on both sides? They'd have to be pretty sizable islands though because we're looking at room for like 2, maybe 3 cities apiece on this strip. I'm going to try to calculate the land tiles based on the demo screen later if I get a chance, because I haven't done so yet.

That would be great - if you just loop around my capital you should run into Dazed. I'll let him know that you are below me and you'd like to contact him.

scooter

Not much to add here, things are off to a solid start.

[scooter]

And the most recent two messages with Dazed:

Scooter,

You're reading-between-the-lines skills are keen! Yes, I would prefer not to switch off a worker but if you did not agree, I would have had time to get the warrior before you could arrive making it simply a stalemate. I appreciate your help and will consider that for the future.

Funny that you said ring becuase that is exactly what I had been considering in my thread. I don't think it could be a straight ring though with five players. I don't see how it would work evenly.

I've found the west coast. Looks to be about 8 tiles wide give or take at different points. I wonder if he did some type of mirror map?

That's it for now. I hope you're internet gets working again soon. If it does, let me know if you want to play some MP!

Dazed

Dazed,

I admit my "reading between the lines" was helped somewhat because I'm in a similar situation to my south. SleepingMoogle popped up on the exact same tile to my south as I did to you, if that makes sense. So I was literally in the same exact spot as you were, so it was easy for me to understand the motive behind your message . I was able to work out a similar deal with him thankfully, so I'm not threatened currently. He has expressed desire in meeting you, so I told him to loop around my capital (keeping a 1 tile buffer) and head north. You could send your scout south to meet him if you'd like, or I could just direct him to your capital.

My theory about the map now that you've said there's a west coast like that, is perhaps we've got this strip of land in the dead middle of the map, and we've got fairly good sized islands on both sides of the starting strip. I don't know if that means toroidal world wrap then? Actually now that you say it, a mirror is possible too... Meaning we've got this strip on the left, islands in the middle, and a "terra" strip on the other side or something? I don't know... Lots of possibilities.

Yeah hopefully internet will be back to normal shortly... I've got access at work, but once I go home for the night it's trickier.

BTW - I moved my warrior west, honoring our deal. Thought I'd let you know so you aren't sweating it out until the save gets back to you .

scooter

More map theorizing in there as well... At this point I think we can all but confirm that we are all on a thin strip of land. Questions that remain:

1. Does this mean Toroidal world wrap? A strip like this would hint at vertical wrapping, so Toroidal would explain that.
2. How much land is out there?
3. How is it laid out? Are there islands on both sides of a central strip? Is it a "mirror" like this: | - | where there's a strip on the left (us), an island in the middle, with an identical strip on the right? Is there a "terra" - like continent out there?

[scooter]

Domestic Planning:

I was first (and only one so far) to discover a tech - landing Fishing a turn ago. I imagine most are gunning for Agriculture right now... I went ahead and started on Meditation, and now I just have to hope that I was correct in my post the other day. I feel I have pretty high chances of landing it, so I'm not TOO worried... My worker finished at end turn, so he'll head to the corn. I think I'm going to go work boat next, though if SleepingMoogle doesn't follow our deal I'll go Quecha instead. After that is likely a quick Quecha and then a scouting workboat so I can get a quick start on that circumnav bonus.

Mechanics question: how does circumnavigation work on a Toroidal map? Can you prove that it's round by going either way? If so, I'll sprint north with my Quecha and send a workboat straight south, and hopefully lock it up first.

[Krill]

To get circum you need to uncover 1 tile from every row, and every column, of the map.

Thanks for the updates. Very interesting reading,especially the possible war dec moves