[SPOILER] PB37: Mirror, mirror, on the wall, who's the most aggressive of them all?

[Krill]

Also Gav built Mids T102 so i figure he wins. He did build them in Samson though....

[Nekira Sudacne]

It depends on what he had to give up to get them. Mids are not an instant win by themselves

[Krill]

Gav is in a pretty good position and he has the skills to win. Only two players have Currency so far (Couer and JR4), consider them front runners. JR4 is EXP/SPI so I'd say he has the best late game trait in SPI but will suffer on naval terms. Out of everyone else, Gav has Mids, Joey has the GLH. Joey is spamming cities and no oner can call him on it, Gav is starting to do the same but with Mids he can just do whatever the fuck he wants. If he wants to ignore me for a while he can do that, but later on I will struggle to counter a GA arms build up through Police State, and Gav will be able to capture a decent shrine.

I need to take out Ventessel quickly. That's the only path I have. I screwed up, I will get Currency later than I should have, that delays Construction with a corresponding delay on killing Ventessel which opens up a window for Gav to hit me. Will he take it? I don't know, shaving towards "No". I think he takes that opportunity to tighten up other poarts of hte game then flood me afterwards.

[Thoth]

With c1/cr3 swords + support troops do you even need Construction do deal with Ventessel? Unless hes managed to get construction himself, I don't see much he could do to stop you.

[Krill]

Archers can get odds on defence if everything stacks up right.

[Krill]

I have come to the conclusion that everybody is playing exactly the same game except for me. Settle in place>grab food techs (or would have done if they hadn't started with them)>BW>settle choke points>settle own area with minimal units>Settle islands.

The only variances have been me, Ventessels reply (ie suicide) and CML being a dick and then smacked down by Couer. Everything else including wonder builds are variations on a theme to enable maximum expansion.

Judaism hasn't fallen. Some players prioritized MC (colossus) over Currency. No one seems to have HBR because choke points and swords make them significantly less useful. Tech is slow because of the start and lack of incidental commerce on the capital tiles. The correct play is rush Astro, and I should be a lock on the GL but I can't figure out how to build it without giving up all the islands, plus I got shafted by Mardoc regarding marble (don't argue this Mardoc, you did shaft me on marble specifically even if it was unintentional). I can't bulb Astro because I have Meditation so GS will bulb Philo instead. Knights are irrelevant, Maces will do fine and Engineering will be better. Unfortunately Feudalism is also core as longbows are the best island defenders, but I think Xbows will be fine as the obvious island attackers are swords and maces. They only needs Machinery.

I'm still really far behind in crop yield, even if every food resources I had in every fat cross was instantly improved and worked I'd barely be above the rival average.

I don't know how to kill Ventessel/DZ and claim islands at the same time. I'm considering going Music after Currency, but I need to save gold either way. I want something like 8 settlers if I want to claim islands. Even leaving AF aside, and placing that on units, I'm struggling to grab units to hold islands. Other players have MC, so I need to follow sooner rather than later, but if I can keep dtay and Gavagai happy then I may be able to delay MC. I need Construction because killing Ventessel/DZ is just the first step, I then need to take land from Joey whom has basically taken too much of Ventessels land because of his fixation on me. Then culture bomb a choke point. So really I need to assess the competition for the Music artist. I also need to consider Wealth building: once I have terraces down in new cities, some need lighthouses, but hte whip is the best way to build other stuff. Between the new cities I probably have something like 10-12hpt, plus a further 10 from the others once they whip lighthouses (but after getting 10 hammers into the lighthouse, I should swap to wealth builds).

If I do that, I could relatively easily get to size 4 or 6 and then whip further settlers. The time frame probably isn't that far off just building them? R101 has to build missionaries unless I somehow rush Music, building culture would really, really help in growing new island cities. Music is 966 adjusted beakers. With Currency I make something like 160bpt at max science, but with wealth builds at something like -60gpt (Shrine makes minimum 13gpt from next turn, got a few free spreads recently). Music would be a 5 turn tech at max science. Construction at 560-ish plius Masonry at 120-ish is a 4 turn tech. So probably save gold for 4 turns and then see.

I still need to tech Archery. But without Colosseums, CG2 is not attainable and I don't want to throttle AF on building Archers except on occasions where I identify CG3 archers are critical.


Hmmmm, still more stuff to figure out.

[Nekira Sudacne]

GL+8 non-imp settlers+war? You don't think small do you?

Realistically speaking, given the Mids have fallen, I think you might be in line for a bit more variance, wherein either you continue to play normally for a normal game that likely ends in a valient game against increasingly overwhelming odds, or you decide to break the mold a bit more.

Something I've had luck with in this case in the past is to take advantage of a large happiness surpluss and convert happiness into settlers by basically eschewing whip cycles and picking one or two high food cities to just whip into the dirt to get the settlers needed, but only in a city that has high food but essentially little else going for it. with lighthouse, Bay of Pigs has two 5 food tiles and a 6 food tile, and a lake tile. If you farm one of the grasslands , you can do sustainable 5-turn whip cycles on settlers at a happiness deficent, growing one pop size until size six, work one turn on settler, then whip, and it can grow one pop a turn until six 6 again, where you again simply switch to settler then whip next turn. (Yes the grasslands farm is necessary, otherwise you would need 2 turns from pop 5 to 6 every three whips. If the pigs were on grass this wouldn't be necessary) If you have MP, it can be a productive settler pump for the rest of the game, and given it'd be only a marginal cottage cheese city otherwise, it's probablly the most productive use for it you have. I sandboxed this and it will allow a settler every 5 turns for as long as you can keep happiness in check once you get the improvements+lighthouse+terrance, and then even with one unhappy face at six 6 it won't matter as that unhappy face will be whipped away. it's only unhappy at size 5 that starts to slow. that will allow it to proive 1/2 to 3/5 of all the settlers you need roughly on time with your galley movements, which would let you have the main city focus on GL.

[Krill]

There is no point thinking small. Think big, figure out how to reach a win condition and then work backwards. In this case, attacking DZ/Ventessel too soon can ;lead to being bogged down and ceding more land to others in the islands than I can claim from China. Attacking too late means I might run into CKN. I have a window, that is what I have to work to in tech, unit builds, everything.

The second part of any war with DZ/Ventessel is dealing with Joey. To be entirely honest, I think that when I take Ventessels capital, Joey will simply clear out the stuff north, and that's just not enough. So I need to build enough to then take a land war straight to Joey. I figure I need to artist bomb to secure that border, the obvious point is to take one of Joey's cities and hold a border there. Now, I can get an artist in two ways. Music or caste (and probably doing it at AF as AF generates 3 GA points per turn). Music is the quickest way, and I can't revolt into caste without a GA, and without slavery I struggle to get island cities online. Music next is therefore the only viable option.

Regarding the micro for whipping settlers, it often makes sense to compare any whip cycle to just outright building something. In the case of settlers, to match a 5 turn whip cycle a city needs to make 20 foodhammers per turn. Given that to triple whip a settler a city needs to reach size 6, it's usually a far comparison to work out what a city can do at size 6 working 6 improved tiles.

In the case of BoP, with the pig, rice, fish and 3 hills, it can make 20 foodhammers per turn if investing 60 hammers into a lighthouse. 19 without the lighthouse. So even without the whip it's possible to make the settlers, and hte whip cycle only makes sense if you want to option to whip other items. (I'll also note that the whip is nerfed in RtR, a 3 pop whip gives 70 hammers so it's not actually possible to keep up a 5 turn cycle but the point holds for base BtS).

In this case, it actually preferable to use Bates Motel for 5 turn settlers at size 5 with a lighthouse; there is a single forest to chop to finish the lighthouse and then it uses clam, fish, wet wheat, horse and stone. Well, tell a lie, as the stone is desert it only reaches 19hpt again.

Anyway, I already have 3 settlers built, and a fourth half way done. This should be enough to claim to contentious locations and then back fill. Currency due in 2 turns (eot109) after I fiddle micro to make sure I grab enough commerce. Update to come later with pictures!

[Krill]

I lied. I'm still not sure what I'm doing with micro and island dotmap so working on that. Managing 2 oceans with just 2 galleys is a pain, but worst of all are islands that force inefficient border pops.

[Mardoc]

plus I got shafted by Mardoc regarding marble (don't argue this Mardoc, you did shaft me on marble specifically even if it was unintentional).

Eh, probably.  Marble's not particularly important, though, not compared to strategics or neighbors or probably even tile yields.  I bet if I gave you the option to replace your marble with a grass pigs or hill iron or silver, it wouldn't be an obvious decision to keep the marble.

Besides, I probably mirrored too much on the map anyway.  There's no interest in maybe having rice instead of wheat to feed a marble city, not like the difference between worth settling ASAP and worth settling only if you have plans for those wonders.