Leaders:
De Gaulle (Cha/Ind)
Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi)
Alexander (Agg/Phi)
Montezuma (Agg/Spi)
Willem (Cre/Fin)
Elizabeth (Fin/Phi)
Stalin (Agg/Ind)
Ramesses (Ind/Spi)
Mao (Exp/Pro)
Washington (Cha/Exp)
Gandhi (Phi/Spi)
Asoka (Org/Spi)
Lincoln (Cha/Phi)
Louis (Cre/Ind)
Suleiman (Imp/Phi)
Isabella (Exp/Spi)
Suryavarman (Cre/Exp)
Brennus (Spi/Cha)
Victoria (Fin/Imp)
Hannibal (Cha/Fin)
Civs:
Russia
America
Carthage
Ottomans
Spain
Mongolia
Full list of correlated first-round pick options and starts, by the way, just for ease of reference:
1) dtay - De Gaulle (Cha/Ind) or Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp) of Ottomans - Start X
2) superdeath (1st time player) - Churchill (Cha/Pro) or Mao (Exp/Pro) of Native Americans - Start H
3) Mr. Cairo - Saladin (Pro/Spi) or Suryavarman (Cre/Exp) of Mongolia - Start T
4) B4ndit - Zara (Cre/Org) or Julius Caesar (Imp/Org) of Sumeria - Start J
5) Rusten - Cyrus (Cha/Imp) or Darius (Fin/Org) of Arabia - Start A
6) Donovan Zoi - Gandhi (Phi/Spi) or Pacal (Exp/Fin) of Maya - Start M
7) Gavagai - Mehmed (Exp/Org) or Augustus (Imp/Ind) of France - Start O
8) Old Harry + Fintourist + shallow_thought + TheHumanHydra - Bismarck (Exp/Ind) or Wang Kon (Fin/Pro) of Persia - Start Q
9) GermanJoey - Isabella (Exp/Spi) or Charlemagne (Imp/Pro) of Spain - Start F
10) Dreylin - Roosevelt (Ind/Org) or Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind) of Vikings - Start I
11) OT4E and Chumchu - Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro) or Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro) of Germany - Start L
12) Dark Savant - Joao (Exp/Imp) or Peter (Exp/Phi) of Byzantium - Start V
13) 2metraninja - Napoleon (Cha/Org) or Lincoln (Cha/Phi) of Aztecs - Start G
14) Mackoti - Willem (Cre/Fin) or Elizabeth (Fin/Phi) of America - Start Y
15) The Black Sword - Victoria (Fin/Imp) or Hannibal (Cha/Fin) of Zulu - Start P
16) AdrienIer - Alexander (Agg/Phi) or Montezuma (Agg/Spi) of Russia - Start K
17) Pindicator - Hammurabi (Agg/Org) or Suleiman (Imp/Phi) of China - Start C
18) WilliamLP - Tokugawa (Agg/Pro) or Louis (Cre/Ind) of Japan - Start D
19) Commodore - Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi) or Kublai Khan (Cha/Cre) of Rome - Start U
20) naufrager (1st time player) - Stalin (Agg/Ind) or Ramesses (Ind/Spi) of Carthage - Start W
21) plako - Brennus (Spi/Cha) or Justinian (Imp/Spi) of Inca - Start S
22) elkad - Shaka (Agg/Exp) or Asoka (Org/Spi) of Korea - Start R
23) spacetyrantxenu - Hatshepsut (Cre/Spi) or Pericles (Cre/Phi) of Greece - Start N
24) Boldly Going Nowhere - Boudica (Agg/Cha) or Catherine (Cre/Imp) of Khmer - Start B
25) Aretas - Ragnar (Agg/Fin) or Washington (Cha/Exp) of Holy Rome - Start E
Also, it occurs to me that Spain got a significant buff when Mercantilism became viable and Castles became valuable long-term investments (they're incredibly cheap with stone for their effect, in this version of RtR) so they're not nearly as awful as I remember. The religion race could potentially ruin somebody though, and I would reroll Spain even without knowing Byz On A Lake is out there too. (The micro for a Joao of Byz Meditation-first start for Dark Savant is an interesting little puzzle and probably good enough to try.)
What were the odds of Spain and Byzantium both landing in Mangrove starts on the first round? (Answering my own question: 5/33 * 4/32 = 5/264 = slightly less than 2%.)
GJ unsurprisingly made the right move, discarding Spain. I'm glad to see he's considering Izzy; I know my team didn't play her to her full potential in 37, but she might be the most fun leader to play in all of Civ4. As for Dark Savant, religion first would be a high-variance play, as he won't be able to guarantee it even against regular Myst civs (because of the specific tech costs and 2c plant). Watching Joao claw his way back from 8+ turns behind and shrine his economic woes away would be pretty amazing if it worked though.
Also, on Krill's PB37 quote (quoted by Rusten) about designing starts: Leaving aside the fact that they're not mirrored, I'm only slowly making my way through the other PB37 spoiler threads, and haven't gotten to Krill's yet. I had no idea that he'd written that description. Rusten is right that Krill had an influence though, obviously: He originated the incense start idea and mentioned he'd give everyone double pasture or double farm food resources, which I carried through. Hilariously though, if Rusten had gotten one of the Mangrove starts, he might have come to a totally different conclusion.
More to the point: We should probably work on getting a map for these people to play on. I'm going to try something now, and see what I can do to spruce Map C up a bit. I'll upload something with some minor changes or some major ones, depending on what I come up with, hopefully in a couple of hours.
This is mostly just me experimenting, and we're not required to use Map C by any means, but if you want to get a sense for how I'm thinking about the starts right now, or if you want to elaborate on what I did or run with it, feel free. The WBSave file with my first few biggish-picture changes is attached. I added sea ice first because that was an easy way to prove my game could handle even loading a map of this size (it's borderline, but I have a work-around now if necessary) and I placed possible start locations for the westmost 10 starts, then put some placeholder inland water and/or peaks in the central areas of each. I'd prefer to have the center of each "pentagon" be a free-for-all, but that's going to be impossible for the sets at the ends of the continent without adding a lot more land - and the map already has way more land tiles (by over 1000!) than the players requested, so I'm more inclined to sink existing tiles (or raise them into mountains) than add more.
That's where my thinking is right now, anyway.
In the meantime, calling what I've actually done so far "rough" would be an understatement, but I wanted to at least get started and do (and post) something!
(January 20th, 2018, 10:38)Krill Wrote: Interesting how half of the players have leaders that share a trait. I wonder how many of those players reroll both leaders.
It struck me that I wasn't sure if this was unlikely or not, so I decided to do a bit of back-of-the-envelope calculation.
There are 11 traits, and most of the pairs are represented. So if I have, for example, IMP/FIN, there are 9 other leaders with IMP and 9 other leaders with FIN for a total of 18 other leaders that share a trait. If we decide to completely ignore leader uniqueness, we can just use a binomial distribution setting "probability of success" at 0.35 (~18/51) to find a 12.5% chance of 12 or more players getting a pair of leaders that share a trait.
Figuring out how to use a hypergeometric distribution with the fact that half of the draws don't actually "count" but set success parameters for the other half would be a bitch, so I'm comfortable just saying that this is a slightly unusual but not eyebrow-raising result.
My lunatic sleep schedule says now's a good time to play around with the map some more. I'm just going to continue my experiments with the one I posted above for now. If I get far enough with it, I might even post pics, but that seems unlikely to happen tonight/this morning....
Latest experimental ideas attached in WB format, now with 25 civ locations marked with signs on the map, although not necessarily the right 25 locations. Tomorrow night, I may try to see if there's a viable way to create ~~~fair access to conflicted areas in the centers of not-even-nearly-equilateral pentagons, just as a proof (or disproof) of concept.
Hopefully once other mapmakers have opinions or start working on an actual map (or even with this one if you want) this will make it easier/faster for me to make actually-useful edits. It's also possible that more scripting can still help, e.g. if the resources can be rerun with the probability of one appearing drastically reduced for tiles with adjacent resources. This is well beyond my own current scripting ability, of course. I'm assuming for now we'll eventually be erasing a bunch of clumped resources manually, but in case there's an easier/better way, it would be good to know.
(Ignore the two civs in random places on the map; they're just there to keep the game from radomly generating 11 every time I load the scenario into worldbuilder.)
(January 22nd, 2018, 09:24)RefSteel Wrote: Latest experimental ideas attached in WB format, now with 25 civ locations marked with signs on the map, although not necessarily the right 25 locations. Tomorrow night, I may try to see if there's a viable way to create ~~~fair access to conflicted areas in the centers of not-even-nearly-equilateral pentagons, just as a proof (or disproof) of concept.
Hopefully once other mapmakers have opinions or start working on an actual map (or even with this one if you want) this will make it easier/faster for me to make actually-useful edits. It's also possible that more scripting can still help, e.g. if the resources can be rerun with the probability of one appearing drastically reduced for tiles with adjacent resources. This is well beyond my own current scripting ability, of course. I'm assuming for now we'll eventually be erasing a bunch of clumped resources manually, but in case there's an easier/better way, it would be good to know.
(Ignore the two civs in random places on the map; they're just there to keep the game from radomly generating 11 every time I load the scenario into worldbuilder.)
The resources can be re-done but only in combination with re-generating the terrain so it would need to be done prior to making any hand edits. (I can keep the same land-form if this one is the one we want to stick with, or just as easily re-roll the landform). Actually I could run the resource re-generation a couple of times on landform_C with various degrees of clumping and post the results.
It may be a couple days before I have time to open your save (or do anything in Civ 4). I can however sketch things in Gimp (has layer ability to move things after drawing them, unlike Paint). The following is my first-glance civ locations drawn on "C" map. ***HUGE IMAGE ALERT***
Dark green color marks areas to make the jungle more dense (turn every forest into a jungle tile). Light green color marks areas to make jungle less dense (leaving about 20% overall jungle coverage for aesthetic purposes).
![[Image: 10.jpg?dl=1]](https://www.dropbox.com/s/nv7agx23unezxxj/10.jpg?dl=1)