RtR mod 4.1.0.1 Discussion Thread

[Krill]

RtR mod 4.1.0.1 proposed changelog (Compared to RtR 4.0.8.5)

Traits:
IMP: -10% city maintenance
PRO: Remove free CD1, give free Drill 3 (+2 free strike chances) to Archery and Gunpowder Units
FIN: +35% production of Library
IND: Can build 2 copies of all national wonders, +100% production of forges. NB wonder production modifer REMOVED!


Tile improvements:
Villages, Towns, are permanent and cannot be pillaged or improved over. Also provide access and tile yields to Oil, Coal, Aluminium and Uranium. Provide access to Iron. Spreads irrigation.
Workshops: Now +1 hammer from Guilds moved to Engineering.

Techs: Fishing, Agriculture, The Wheel, Hunting, Mysticism Mining: base cost changed to 45.


Units:
Caravel, strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 1 capacity (can transport any units), remove ability to enter cultural borders [Other stats unchanged, 60 hammers, requires Optics, 3 moves]
Carrack: Increase to strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 4 moves, 2 capacity, remove ability to enter cultural borders.
EIM: Lower to 3 capacity, remove ability to enter culture without OB.
Privateer: Requires Optics and Paper, +50% attack against Ships of the Line, removed ability to attack without war declartion and hidden nationality.(other stats unchanged, cost 80, strength 6, 4 moves, requires iron or copper)
Ship of the Line: iCollateraldamage = 75, iCollateraldamagelimit = 70 (ie 30% hp max damage from collateral), iCollateralDamageLimit = 5
Ironclad: Decrease to 1 movement point. Starts with Navigation 1 and Flanking 1 promotions, 1 free strike strength 12, no defensive bonus, requires iron, coal, Steel and Steampower, costs 120.

Barbarians: Barbarian Animals: Wolf: unchanged.
Lion: Strength 1, 1 move. +100% against Melee.
Panther: Strength 1, 2 move, starts with woodsman 2 promotion.
Bear: Strength 1, 1 move, +300% against Melee.
Scout: +200% against barbarian animals. Require no tech. Every player starts with a scout instead of a warrior.
All difficulty levels adjusted so human barbarian units and barb cities do not spawn before turn 40; barb animals span from turn 5 onwards.


Buildings: Castle: Obsolete at Corporation (Except defensive bonus). Requires Walls. No trait or resource production bonus. Cost reduced to 80 hammers.

All National wonders duplicated (except Rushmore): duplicates renamed Industrial [National Wonder]. Costs increased by ~50000%, production modifier of 90000% given to IND.

Industrial Moai Statues: cost 12500
Industrial National Epic: cost 12500, requires Aesthetics
Industrial Heroic Epic: cost 10000, requires level 3 units
Industrial Globe Theatre: cost 15000
Industrial Hermitage: cost 15000
Industrial Forbidden Palace: cost 10000
Industrial Ironworks: cost 35000
Industrial Oxford University: cost 20000
Industrial Wall Street: cost 30000
Industrial West Point: 27500
Industrial National Park: cost 15000
Industrial Red Cross: Cost 10000

Promotions: Drill 4 requires Drill 2 and Drill 3. (Fix for PRO, no functional change in game)

Civ changes: Discussion to be found here

[Krill]

There is one other change I would like to see included, but I am unable to code it. I want a new game option that removes resource modifier bonuses from buildings that have the <iMaxGlobalInstances>1</iMaxGlobalInstances>, in other words, from all wonders.

That way we can play random maps without worrying abour marble or stone allocation.

[Krill]

Breaking this down:

Traits:
IMP: -10% city maintenance
PRO: Remove free CD1, give free Drill 3 (+2 free strike chances) to Archery and Gunpowder Units
FIN: +35% production of Library
IND: Can build 2 copies of all national wonders, +100% production of forges. NB wonder production modifer REMOVED!

The only change from the mod used in PB42 is that IMP is getting a buff of -10% city maintenance. It lost 10% production on settlers and has absolutely no mid game buffs. It needs something. This seems like a reasonable buff.

Tile improvements:
Villages, Towns, are permanent and cannot be pillaged or improved over. Also provide access and tile yields to Oil, Coal, Aluminium and Uranium. Provide access to Iron. Spreads irrigation.
Workshops: Now +1 hammer from Guilds moved to Engineering.

The village/town change is based off what was done in the mod used in PB27. It boils down to this: in most wars that have more than 2 factions, all the towns get pillaged by one player, because the player that takes the city can't fight both the previous city owner and another player and still make forward progress. By the point they can, they have already won the game. Pillaging towns pushes everyone towards workshopping tiles outside a few early cottage cities. making them unpillageable removes this issue, and also solves the air bombing of resource tile problem in terms of turn split.

The down side is that you have to forward plan from early in the game where cottages are put, and when you capture players lands, you might get stuck with a village or town. I don't see either of those as problems in a strategy game.

The workshop change I'm less sure about, but it's there to even up the decision regarding Guilds v Engineering when trying to play defense. I agree it may not be necessary which is why we discuss these things.

Units:
Caravel, strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 1 capacity (can transport any units), remove ability to enter cultural borders [Other stats unchanged, 60 hammers, requires Optics, 3 moves]
Carrack: Increase to strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 4 moves, 2 capacity, remove ability to enter cultural borders.
EIM: Lower to 3 capacity, remove ability to enter culture without OB.
Privateer: Requires Optics and Paper, +50% attack against Ships of the Line, removed ability to attack without war declartion and hidden nationality.(other stats unchanged, cost 80, strength 6, 4 moves, requires iron or copper)
Ship of the Line: iCollateraldamage = 75, iCollateraldamagelimit = 70 (ie 30% hp max damage from collateral), iCollateralDamageLimit = 5
Ironclad: Decrease to 1 movement point. Starts with Navigation 1 and Flanking 1 promotions, 1 free strike strength 12, no defensive bonus, requires iron, coal, Steel and Steampower, costs 120.[/wuote]

The only change (minus the removal of being able to attack without a war dec which I forgot about before) from PB42 is to give the privateers a combat bonus against SoL, to force players to not just build SoL and nothing else. It's to create combined arms. It's not actually that great a bonus: Privateers get a 66% chance of winning at even promotion level, if the SoL has more combat promotions, it will have odds on defense.


[quote]Barbarians: Barbarian Animals: Wolf: unchanged.
Lion: Strength 1, 1 move. +100% against Melee.
Panther: Strength 1, 2 move, starts with woodsman 2 promotion.
Bear: Strength 1, 1 move, +300% against Melee.
Scout: +200% against barbarian animals. Require no tech. Every player starts with a scout instead of a warrior.
All difficulty levels adjusted so human barbarian units and barb cities do not spawn before turn 40; barb animals span from turn 5 onward.

How many times have you lost a warrior to a barb bear? How many times have you lost a starting scout to a wolf or jag at low odds? Well, now you have a choice: do you go worker>warrior, or Worker>scout? The scout will be useful, it will explore more land, and it will be able to keep animals away from settlers.It can even be used to fogbust for the same cost as a warrior. It just will fail miserably at defending cities so you still need warriors. Or do you focus at actually getting archer earlier, or a real military unit? So as a player, you have a decision to make, whilst trying to limit the effects of the RNG hating you.

Buildings: Castle: Obsolete at Corporation (Except defensive bonus). Requires Walls. No trait or resource production bonus. Cost reduced to 80 hammers.

Stone can go fuck itself, and it lengthens the period of time castles are good economic buildings, so we can use them as UB.

All National wonders duplicated (except Rushmore): duplicates renamed Industrial [National Wonder]. Costs increased by ~50000%, production modifier of 90000% given to IND.

Industrial Moai Statues: cost 12500
Industrial National Epic: cost 12500, requires Aesthetics
Industrial Heroic Epic: cost 10000, requires level 3 units
Industrial Globe Theatre: cost 15000
Industrial Hermitage: cost 15000
Industrial Forbidden Palace: cost 10000
Industrial Ironworks: cost 35000
Industrial Oxford University: cost 20000
Industrial Wall Street: cost 30000
Industrial West Point: 27500
Industrial National Park: cost 15000
Industrial Red Cross: Cost 10000

IND getting tightened up. If someone has better suggestions for cost and production modifier values to make things easier to understand I'm all eyes and ears.

Promotions: Drill 4 requires Drill 2 and Drill 3. (Fix for PRO, no functional change in game)

You were not supposed to be able to skip D2 on the way to D4 when you had PRO archers! That's the only effect.

[Charriu]

Breaking this down:

Traits:
IMP: -10% city maintenance
PRO: Remove free CD1, give free Drill 3 (+2 free strike chances) to Archery and Gunpowder Units
FIN: +35% production of Library
IND: Can build 2 copies of all national wonders, +100% production of forges. NB wonder production modifer REMOVED!

The only change from the mod used in PB42 is that IMP is getting a buff of -10% city maintenance. It lost 10% production on settlers and has absolutely no mid game buffs. It needs something. This seems like a reasonable buff.

Did I miss something or where and when did IMP lose 10% production on settlers? So together with AGG, that would be 35%. So a Holy Roman Empire could look at a 110% reduction and a Zulu player at 95%. What happens in case of 110%, it will become 0, right? Just saw the gold exploit video about Civ 6, which is why I'm asking about this. Otherwise I'm fine with it.

Tile improvements:
Villages, Towns, are permanent and cannot be pillaged or improved over. Also provide access and tile yields to Oil, Coal, Aluminium and Uranium. Provide access to Iron. Spreads irrigation.
Workshops: Now +1 hammer from Guilds moved to Engineering.

The village/town change is based off what was done in the mod used in PB27.  It boils down to this: in most wars that have more than 2 factions, all the towns get pillaged by one player, because the player that takes the city can't fight both the previous city owner and another player and still make forward progress. By the point they can, they have already won the game. Pillaging towns pushes everyone towards workshopping tiles outside a few early cottage cities. making them unpillageable removes this issue, and also solves the air bombing of resource tile problem in terms of turn split.

The down side is that you have to forward plan from early in the game where cottages are put, and when you capture players lands, you might get stuck with a village or town. I don't see either of those as problems in a strategy game.

The workshop change I'm less sure about, but it's there to even up the decision regarding Guilds v Engineering when trying to play defense. I agree it may not be necessary which is why we discuss these things.

I understand the reason for eliminating pillaging. It feels a bit strange that they are the only improvement that can't be pillaged, but that's a minor issue. But why should I not be able to improve over them? That's sounds a little bit hard. Yes in a war somebody could start improving over the enemies villages and towns, but that's a bit harder and takes longer then pillaging. It also does not net any gold for the player doing it. I also understand this correctly that cottages and hamlets can still be pillaged, correct?
Workshop change is fine.

Units:
Caravel, strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 1 capacity (can transport any units), remove ability to enter cultural borders [Other stats unchanged, 60 hammers, requires Optics, 3 moves]
Carrack: Increase to strength 4, -30% against galleys and triremes, 4 moves, 2 capacity, remove ability to enter cultural borders.
EIM: Lower to 3 capacity, remove ability to enter culture without OB.
Privateer: Requires Optics and Paper, +50% attack against Ships of the Line, removed ability to attack without war declartion and hidden nationality.(other stats unchanged, cost 80, strength 6, 4 moves, requires iron or copper)
Ship of the Line: iCollateraldamage = 75, iCollateraldamagelimit = 70 (ie 30% hp max damage from collateral), iCollateralDamageLimit = 5
Ironclad: Decrease to 1 movement point. Starts with Navigation 1 and Flanking 1 promotions, 1 free strike strength 12, no defensive bonus, requires iron, coal, Steel and Steampower, costs 120.[/wuote]

The only change (minus the removal of being able to attack without a war dec which I forgot about before) from PB42 is to give the privateers a combat bonus against SoL, to force players to not just build SoL and nothing else. It's to create combined arms. It's not actually that great a bonus: Privateers get a 66% chance of winning at even promotion level, if the SoL has more combat promotions, it will have odds on defense.

Do it.

Barbarians: Barbarian Animals: Wolf: unchanged.
Lion: Strength 1, 1 move. +100% against Melee.
Panther: Strength 1, 2 move, starts with woodsman 2 promotion.
Bear: Strength 1, 1 move, +300% against Melee.
Scout: +200% against barbarian animals. Require no tech. Every player starts with a scout instead of a warrior.
All difficulty levels adjusted so human barbarian units and barb cities do not spawn before turn 40; barb animals span from turn 5 onward.

How many times have you lost a warrior to a barb bear? How many times have you lost a starting scout to a wolf or jag at low odds? Well, now you have a choice: do you go worker>warrior, or Worker>scout? The scout will be useful, it will explore more land, and it will be able to keep animals away from settlers.It can even be used to fogbust for the same cost as a warrior. It just will fail miserably at defending cities so you still need warriors. Or do you focus at actually getting archer earlier, or a real military unit? So as a player, you have a decision to make, whilst trying to limit the effects of the RNG hating you.

After my PB40 I'm all for it.

Buildings: Castle: Obsolete at Corporation (Except defensive bonus). Requires Walls. No trait or resource production bonus. Cost reduced to 80 hammers.

Stone can go fuck itself, and it lengthens the period of time castles are good economic buildings, so we can use them as UB.

Yes, stone has more then enough modifiers tied to it. All for it

All National wonders duplicated (except Rushmore): duplicates renamed Industrial [National Wonder]. Costs increased by ~50000%, production modifier of 90000% given to IND.

Industrial Moai Statues: cost 12500
Industrial National Epic: cost 12500, requires Aesthetics
Industrial Heroic Epic: cost 10000, requires level 3 units
Industrial Globe Theatre: cost 15000
Industrial Hermitage: cost 15000
Industrial Forbidden Palace: cost 10000
Industrial Ironworks: cost 35000
Industrial Oxford University: cost 20000
Industrial Wall Street: cost 30000
Industrial West Point: 27500
Industrial National Park: cost 15000
Industrial Red Cross: Cost 10000

IND getting tightened up. If someone has better suggestions for cost and production modifier values to make things easier to understand I'm all eyes and ears.

How did these numbers change to the version in PB42?

[Krill]

My understanding of the city maintenance reduction is that it is multiplicative with the court house, and I believe Hammurabi of HRE would cap out at 100% reduction.

[Charriu]

With Hammurabi you mean the ORG trait? But that's for Civic maintenance and the Rathaus is City maintenance. Those are two different numbers, right? In any case it's better to give it a quick test, when it's implemented.

[Krill]

It's way to early in the morning. I meant Genghis.

[Charriu]

Ah ok. Makes more sense now. I'm just curious if a combination if AGG/IMP and Rathaus would reduce this to 0. But I just noticed that this would already be possible with AGG and Rathaus.

[Krill]

The national wonder bit for IND: base cost is essentially half the total cost, ie IHE is roughly 100 base hammers and no amount of forges, OR or other build modifiers will make more than 1 hammer difference.

IND is basically blank until forges, Moai, HE or NE come online. It is interesting, but because you have to find 4 cities for the NE and HE, the extra copies pretty much always go in weaker cities. Working out how to build them? Challenging. But if you don't unlock the HE I reckon it is about as weak as BtS PRO.

[Cornflakes]

Are the Industrial national wonders available for IND to build from the start of the game? In your list only National Epic has a prerequisite tech listed.