A new mod enters the ring - Introducing "Close to Home"

[Mjmd]

I was actually thinking about +1H to lumbermills instead of the +1 commerce. Still probably not built until later, but then at least its a close decision / gives those Ice cities something to do if needed other than being fishing villages.

[Charriu]

I think that the best approach to make forest preserve somewhat useful is to make lumber mill available early enough and provide a big enough boost to make chopping or not an actual decision. In the early cities the snowball effect will be too high but cities settled later on in the game you can tweak it so that lumber mills are ok. That would enable saving for a national park in late game some times at least.

I was going to save this for after 52, but I was thinking about how lumbermills aren't getting a lot of attention either. My idea was to open them up with metal casting - or even Bronze working! - but they only get the commerce portion at first. They get the +1h unlocked at machinery so you don't have super early 2f2h tiles.  Maybe that encourages some to be used as they are a decent improvement right now, but it's hard to pass on the chop hammers for so long as you wait for them to unlock

Good points. Metal Casting is certainly doable, but with Bronze working there is the problem of the longer build time of lumbermills in those early stages of the game. 

You can grow forests as a production reserve for wonders/projects/space ship parts. It is also not necessary to build a lumber mill. You can just pillage the forest preserve.

I have to check this, but I thought one can't pillage your own improvements.

I was actually thinking about +1H to lumbermills instead of the +1 commerce. Still probably not built until later, but then at least its a close decision / gives those Ice cities something to do if needed other than being fishing villages.

Those ice cities are actually the one place were I built lumbermills most of the time. Those 1/0/0 tundras, which can't be improved either way are just terrible. Saving a forest on them and constructing a lumbermill there is very nice.

Also this is just a crazy thought, but what about if you can built lumbermills on jungles, too? Have to think about that.

[civac2]

You can pillage you own tiles. You just don't get any reward.

[NobleHelium]

I have some thoughts on Inca and India.

Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture

So, I think this makes Inca an extremely weak civ. Part of the thing with Inca is they’ve always been a civ that is purely defined by their UB. Their UU is essentially a null unit against humans because its entire value is rushing high level AIs that get free Archers. Their techs are below average in BtS, although they’re pretty decent in CTH now. But this UB is just kind of a big nothing? Maybe I’m missing something, but what is the scenario in which this is a major benefit? It’ll definitely help the occasional city that needs a farm and can’t get one pre-CS, but surely that’s a very niche benefit with very low utility on most maps. I ask that because while the original UB does need some sort of nerf or change, it does need to be a pretty good UB as long as that UU stays useless. Otherwise, I don’t know why you would ever pick Inca unless you absolutely need Agriculture/Mysticism. In a pure balance mod, I could be talked into dumpstering Inca because the concept of culture on a Granary is nearly impossible to balance. In a mod like this, I’m not so sure? I think this is probably a bottom-5 civ right now, and that feels a bit wrong in a Close to Home mod.


It’s hard for me to make a constructive suggestion though. 70h already seemed a bit tough in the last iteration. What about something like 65h and 1 culture/turn? I just think removing the culture requires a total overhaul of this civ, so maybe we just tune it down a few notches but keep the core conceit? I think it’s either that, or go with your new bonus and rethink their UU.

I agree 1.4 Terrace sucks. Maybe you can have it be unlocked by Agriculture which is what Tides of War did. Inca starts with Agriculture.

[Charriu]

I agree 1.4 Terrace sucks.  Maybe you can have it be unlocked by Agriculture which is what Tides of War did.  Inca starts with Agriculture.

I've looked back at the old ToW PBs and Inca wasn't especially loved with this change. But maybe you meant to combine both: Acts as source of water and available at Agriculture? Do two bonus that are considered rather bad, add up to a mediocre bonus? I'm not so sure.

I think if I keep the "Act as source of water" I would rather make the granary cheaper, which would also maybe break it's connection to EXP.

[NobleHelium]

Yes, you can probably keep the fresh water bonus. I've never tried the ToW terrace so I can't say how good it is. The idea of being able to grow on a granary instead of a warrior at the beginning of the game is intriguing.

I would be hesitant to make the granary cheaper. That would be faux-EXP and the terrace being faux-CRE is how we got here in the first place. I also think the "does not synergize with trait like the regular building" solution is extremely inelegant and would prefer to avoid those at all costs.

[Charriu]

Yes, you can probably keep the fresh water bonus.  I've never tried the ToW terrace so I can't say how good it is.  The idea of being able to grow on a granary instead of a warrior at the beginning of the game is intriguing.

I would be hesitant to make the granary cheaper.  That would be faux-EXP and the terrace being faux-CRE is how we got here in the first place.  I also think the "does not synergize with trait like the regular building" solution is extremely inelegant and would prefer to avoid those at all costs.

The question is what would be stronger a granary that costs 45 or 30 hammer or a granary that gives +1 or +2 culture. I would argue the culture one is stronger, because EXP exists. Then again there is scooters initial argument:

I ask that because while the original UB does need some sort of nerf or change, it does need to be a pretty good UB as long as that UU stays useless.

And I have to agree. While the Quecha isn't as bad as scooter pointed out originally it is not the one single reason you are going for Inca. The UB needs to make up for this.

[Miguelito]

The cheap granary at agriculture for Babylon from RtR has been pretty popular. I'd concur that eliminating the EXP bonus is pretty ugly, so I'd recommend to keep it, cost 60h, at agriculture, and with the irrigation bonus.
The thing with the latter is that it can be useful, but I think nobody will ever pick for it, because when picking I'm not thinking "oh yeah I'll find a dry corn and settle my 3rd city bordering it", so it only really makes sense if said dry corn is bordering the starting plains hill.
That would make it stronger than the RtR Garden, but the Quechua is worse than the bowman, so I guess it's ok? Though I'm surprised by people saying the Quechua is plain useless, I thought they were quite popular as cheap MP that you can still build after Hunting?

While I'm here, I'd like to ask if you'd consider one of the following changes still, which had been discussed before:
- Serfdom earlier (maybe just at Monarchy? Alphabet I think would be fun to make it a choice vs maths, but terrible thematically)
- Slavery, or chopping, at Masonry. I still feel BW is just overloaded and too much of a one right choice. I can see though that a change is a significant move away from home.

[Wyatan]

And I have to agree. While the Quecha isn't as bad as scooter pointed out originally it is not the one single reason you are going for Inca. The UB needs to make up for this.

I kinda thought that the main reason you go Inca is for the Financial + Industrious failgold combo.
With failgold being dealt with, and Financial nerfed, the Incas have already been kicked down pretty hard.

[Old Harry]

I don't understand why a 50 hammer terrace being 25 hammers for exp would be a problem?