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Old Harry · September 22nd, 2020, 09:20

I'd lurk a game with c1 on everything...

Charriu · September 22nd, 2020, 12:43

This is only the changelog compared to version 1.4. All differences between versions are in yellow. If you prefer a clean changelog just look at the second post of this thread.

Changelog version 1.5 RC1

Tile Yields and Improvements

Lumbermills: Available at Machinery Metal Casting, +1 commerce with Machinery, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers
Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above

Game Mechanics

Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).
AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
War Weariness: War weariness declines faster after the war ended
Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
Global warming: Removed
Espionage: Active missions removed
Espionage: 'No espionage' option fixed, see bugfix section for more details

Techs

Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of 450
Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
Mysticism Animal Husbandry: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace
Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement

Buildings

Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)
Colosseum: -25% war weariness

National Wonders

Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6

Wonders

Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder

Unit mechanics

Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
Circumnavigation: +1 trade route in all coastal cities instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody
Coastal blockade: only blocks trade routes, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.
Free Wins against Barbs: All units that can act as MP get Free Wins against barbs as long as a settler is present in the same tile. Does still reduce your Free Wins towards Barbs

Land units

Scout: +0% +100% vs animals (+200% +100% vs Animals gained with Hunting) instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout
Swordsman: +25% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8, does not apply to Khmer UUs, requires Ivory or Iron, does apply to Khmer UUs
Explorer: Gains Flanking
Airship: Cannot see submarines
ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250
Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.

Naval units

Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
Galleon: Requires Paper and Astronomy, Dutch UU still only requires Astronomy
Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy

Corporations

Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.25 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1 instead of 2, maintenance costs halfed
Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original

Civics

Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism
Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs
Nationhood: Low cost instead of No Upkeep

Traits

Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce, +100% production of bank
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct +20% production of workers instead of 25%
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 50%, Remove production bonus for Colosseum
Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +100% production of Colosseum
Imperialistic: +100% production of Stable
Aggressive: -25% unit maintenance cost and +100% production of Jails,
Philosophical: +150% GPP instead of +100%
Protective: +75% domestic trade route yield

Civs

UBs no longer obsolete at any time. Affected civs are Celts, Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America, Spain
America UB: NEW Immigration Station - Harbor replacement, +3 Great People Points, +1 happy from Hit Musical, Singles and Movies
America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.
Arabia UU: Camel Archer starts with March
Byzantium UB: add +2 artist slots
Celts UB: +1 culture
China UU: max 75% collateral damage instead of max 60%
Germany UB: Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer
Germany UU: NEW Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch
Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion, Cost 70 instead of 60
Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals
Maya UU: Starts with Woodsman 1
Native America Tech: Hunting/Agriculture instead of Fishing/Agriculture
Native America UB: Available at Archery instead of Mysticism, additional +1 XP for gunpowder units, never obsoletes
Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory, only +1 free scientist
Spain UB: Never obsoletes, +2 XP for naval units
Zulu UU: Remove Mobility promotion

Leaders

Also included are three new leaders for the missing trait combos

LieuYe (ORG/PRO)
San Martin (CHM/CRE) and
Nebuchadrezzar (IND/PRO)

Events

New game options

BUG integration

Additional bug fixes

Added bugfixes from Unoffical Patch https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/u...19.324024/:

NobleHelium · September 22nd, 2020, 12:50

I don't understand the logic for the AH change. You are just making going for AH even more important for starts with a pasture resource, which reduces civ diversity and viability. The goal should be to make it less punishing to not immediately research AH if you need a pasture, not more.

Charriu · September 22nd, 2020, 13:05

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Lumbermills: Available at Machinery Metal Casting, +1 commerce with Machinery, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers

This was suggested some posts ago. As far as I have seen the previous change did not lead to people considering lumbermills more. I'm willing to give this a try and see how it is perceived in-game.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 6 instead of size 5 (So size 8 to draft a rifle, size 7 to draft a musket).

It was discussed by some that the size limitation is too strong a nerf and that it also only was a legacy change from RtR. I kind of agree. The most important change here anyway is the 2 pop draft. The other one isn't that important. Kill the fluff.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Mysticism Animal Husbandry: Now adds +1 commerce to Palace

The Mysticism change was quiet a topic in many PBs. After I've seen it play out in PBs I'm ready to let it go. I now think that it makes Mysticism too strong compared to the other starting techs and in addition the Mysticism civs. It mostly depended on when the non-civs researched Mysticism which was on average around turn 70. This in turn means 70 more commerce for the Mysticism civs across the whole game.
Now at the same time I give this bonus to Animal Husbandry for now. A start with (only) AH resources is considered a bad start by many and with the extra commerce those players that do need to tech it early get a little bit extra to compensate. I don't think the advantage won't be as strong on AH as on Mysticism, because for one almost nobody will research AH very early only for the extra commerce. Because AH also unlocks more food resources other players will tech it sooner then Mysticism, making the advantage for the early adopters smaller over the long game.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Scout: +0% +100% vs animals (+200% +100% vs Animals gained with Hunting) instead of +100%, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout

This looks ugly, but basically the scout is back to its +100% vs animal. The +0% was considered too annoying by some and therefore I'm going back here. I keep the extra 100% on Hunting so that Hunting has at least a bigger incentive compared to base BtS Hunting.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism

Similar to Lumbermills this was suggested previously. I'm willing to give it a test run, although I think it may be not close to home enough. If it's not close to home enough maybe the RtR player want it. smile

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct +20% production of workers instead of 25%

I was puzzled about so many players choosing IMP nowadays. Most of the time I read that IMP is now the better early trait compared to EXP. That's why I want to run this version of EXP for a test. With only 20% you only get an extra hammer for every 5th hammer. This is still easily achieved on a developed civ, but for the T0 worker start it only can be done with a plains hill forest in your first ring or something similar that gives 3 hammers + 2 hammers from plains hill city tiles. That way EXP is still nerfed quiet a bit for those early turns. If you only have the plains hill forest tile in your second tile you at least get your worker one turn earlier then the others.
At the same time I removed the Aqueduct not because it didn't fit, but because I already gave EXP a lot back compared to previous versions.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Creative: Reduce Library bonus from 100% to 50%, Remove production bonus for Colosseum

Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +100% production of Colosseum

CHA is already a well liked trait if I look at the running PBs. With the recent addition of -25% war weariness I felt that CHA gets a little bit too much of a bonus. At the same time I see less love for CRE, which is why it gets its colosseum bonus back.

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote: Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45
India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion, Cost 70 instead of 60

Both of these previous civ changes were considered too much of a nerf, so I'm going back here.

scooter · September 22nd, 2020, 13:13

(September 22nd, 2020, 13:05)Charriu Wrote:
(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct +20% production of workers instead of 25%

I was puzzled about so many players choosing IMP nowadays. Most of the time I read that IMP is now the better early trait compared to EXP. That's why I want to run this version of EXP for a test. With only 20% you only get an extra hammer for every 5th hammer. This is still easily achieved on a developed civ, but for the T0 worker start it only can be done with a plains hill forest in your first ring or something similar that gives 3 hammers + 2 hammers from plains hill city tiles. That way EXP is still nerfed quiet a bit for those early turns. If you only have the plains hill forest tile in your second tile you at least get your worker one turn earlier then the others.
At the same time I removed the Aqueduct not because it didn't fit, but because I already gave EXP a lot back compared to previous versions.

I've been puzzled too, because I'd argue those players picking IMP over EXP in current versions of CTH are just wrong tongue

. So to me, this makes EXP the clear best trait. Not sure where others stand on this.

Charriu · September 22nd, 2020, 13:16

(September 22nd, 2020, 12:50)NobleHelium Wrote: I don't understand the logic for the AH change. You are just making going for AH even more important for starts with a pasture resource, which reduces civ diversity and viability. The goal should be to make it less punishing to not immediately research AH if you need a pasture, not more.

Well there are basically 3 scenarios when it comes to food and AH.

1. A start with only AH resources
2. A start with agriculture and AH resources
3. A start with seafood and AH resources.

Now 1# is the main reason for my change and in that scenario you will go for AH anyway, because it's the only food.
With 2# you still want a civ with Agriculture in most cases
3# is more complicated I admit.

The problem with AH is that if I reduce the cost of AH it also increases the possibility of a chariot rush and could upset the early pace of the game. The other way to reduce AHs cost would be to add more OR-prerequisites. The problem here is which tech(s) should it be:

The Wheel is just playing directly into the early chariot rush problem again.
Mysticism would be good as there are 6 civs with Mysticism, but without Hunting or Agriculture. This would open up more diversity. Only problem here is that Mysticism might make it too strong.
This only leaves Fishing, which just like Mysticism has 6 civs with Fishing and without Hunting or Agriculture. I think of all the candidates Fishing would be the best.

There's also the tiny issue that adding those prerequisites looks ugly in the F6 screen.

I also want to mention that the Hunting/AH swap from RtR is off the table, because it was deemed not close at home enough.

Charriu · September 22nd, 2020, 13:18

(September 22nd, 2020, 13:13)scooter Wrote:
(September 22nd, 2020, 13:05)Charriu Wrote:
(September 22nd, 2020, 12:43)Charriu Wrote:
Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct +20% production of workers instead of 25%

I was puzzled about so many players choosing IMP nowadays. Most of the time I read that IMP is now the better early trait compared to EXP. That's why I want to run this version of EXP for a test. With only 20% you only get an extra hammer for every 5th hammer. This is still easily achieved on a developed civ, but for the T0 worker start it only can be done with a plains hill forest in your first ring or something similar that gives 3 hammers + 2 hammers from plains hill city tiles. That way EXP is still nerfed quiet a bit for those early turns. If you only have the plains hill forest tile in your second tile you at least get your worker one turn earlier then the others.
At the same time I removed the Aqueduct not because it didn't fit, but because I already gave EXP a lot back compared to previous versions.

I've been puzzled too, because I'd argue those players picking IMP over EXP in current versions of CTH are just wrong . So to me, this makes EXP the clear best trait. Not sure where others stand on this.

I think another thing that was misleading some players is the stable change. The stable bonus is great for civs with early mounted UUs like Carthage or Mongolia, but for civs like Russia it's not that strong, because by the time you reached the Russian UU you had planty of time to build standard stables anyway.

Charriu · September 22nd, 2020, 13:24

(September 22nd, 2020, 07:21)civac2 Wrote: I'd prefer a simple but strong bonus on Aggressive.

-50% unit maintenance

-50% unit maintenance
-100% unit supply

-100% unit maintenance

-C1 on all units

-C1 on all units except mounted

Some of these may be actually too strong, or maybe not.

Also wanted to quickly reply to this.

-50% unit maintenance is certainly an option that I would be willing to go with. The good thing with the data from PB54 we know how good the current 25% are and can make good estimates of how good a 50% would be.

-50% unit maintenance
-100% unit supply
-100% unit supply is most certainly too strong because it basically eliminates one mechanic that makes warring over a long time in enemy territory not worthwhile.

-100% unit maintenance is way too strong. Just go to Monarchy and fill up all cities with units and grow to 20 pop and more without any disadvantage.

-C1 on all units
-C1 on all units except mounted
Both doable, but I would like to try the Barrage for Siege units first, but that requires some changes to the code to get it done.

civac2 · September 22nd, 2020, 13:51

I think you are making a mistake in changing the game too fast. There is not much reliable data on some of these changes except for what players think is good expressed in their picks.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that Mysticism is too good? You get 70 extra commerce. But you also start with only one worker tech.

NobleHelium

(September 22nd, 2020, 13:51)civac2 Wrote: I think you are making a mistake in changing the game too fast. There is not much reliable data on some of these changes except for what players think is good expressed in their picks.

How did you arrive at the conclusion that Mysticism is too good? You get 70 extra commerce. But you also start with only one worker tech.

I have to agree with this statement in general. As for the specifics, I don't have a strong feel either way which is why I am not commenting on most of the changes. But that is also an indicator that there isn't enough data yet.

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