[SPOILERS] Serdoas thread

[Serdoa]

Hello in my thread,

if you are playing in PBEM7 - do not read on, go away till the game is over. If you are lurking, leave a message






















Because I have no pictures available (and do not want to search something completely irrelevant) I will leave some space here. Just in case.

[Serdoa]

[SIZE="4"][INDENT]Table of Contents[/SIZE]
[SIZE="3"]Thoughts on everything[/SIZE][INDENT]1. Thoughts on Starting Techs
2. Thoughts on Bismarck from Inca (scooter)
3. Thoughts on Suryavarman of Maya (SleepingMoogle)
4. Thoughts on Washington of Ottomans (Twinkletoes)
5. Thoughts on Zara Yaqob of Holy Rome (Dazedroyalty)
6. Thoughts on Joao of India (Serdoa)
7. Thoughts on Settings
[/INDENT][/INDENT]



[INDENT][SIZE="3"]Turn Reports[/SIZE][INDENT]1. The Start!
2. Turn 0
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[INDENT][SIZE="3"]C&D[/SIZE][INDENT]1. Explanations on Score Points by SilentConfusion
[/INDENT][/INDENT]



[INDENT][SIZE="3"]Micromanagement Madness[/SIZE][INDENT]1. The first idea and the first revision on it
2.
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Ok, so some thoughts: I invested some time now (well, the whole evening) to make an excel-file with all civs, their techs, their UB and UU, which surely exists anywhere on the internet already, only to pick India in the end. Basically the only reason for that was that I thought: If you do not know anything about the map, the best civ is probably the one which can adapt to any situation. I think fast workers are the single most useful unit in this regard.

Oh, and also because I always build to few workers. Even in my last game at immortal difficulty I had only build 7 workers - which finally lost me the game (well basically, I could have won diplomatically) as I could not convert fast enough to workshops and therefore lacked the production for the space ship.

I pondered also with the idea to go with Arabia and use the Madrasa for some quick GP and as start into a SE, ignoring the lower part of the tree for some time and instead grabbing Music and using the culture slider for happiness (if you use specialists for beakers and some money, you do not have that much commerce to run through the slider anyway). Getting a GP it would be settled for the gold, getting a GS -> academy or bulbing. But I had some reasons not to do it:

1. I have never played a SE.
2. I have no clue if the idea would play out as good as it sounds for me after working 12 hours...
3. I did not see why 2 priest-specialists would make that much difference - sure if the map is food-rich I could hire 4 GP as soon as I have writing (but that would hurt expansion) but I would want CoL quickly anyway and then I would rather hire in one city 2-3 scientists and 1-2 merchants.
4. Using the culture slider I would not need monarchy but if somebody attacks I might want Feudalism.

And I probably have forgotten some more (and better) arguments. So, I picked India.

[Serdoa]

Thinking about, I have never played in any tournament game here nor did I tell anything about my civ-experience. That might help to get under- or overestimated by the others. But so that you lurkers have a clue: I did play some games of civ, always SP. No MP experience. In SP I started on Prince or Noble I think. Played some games, started one at Monarch, won that, started one at Emperor, won that too. Afterwards I did not really play any game to the end but rather stopped at around 1 AD mostly. I recently played one Immortal game a little bit longer (see the post above) and thats it. I do not think that I am a good player as I do not micromanage enough, I whip not often enough and sometimes at the wrong time and so on. Therefore my aim for this game is to have fun, maybe learn a little bit about modern warfare (as I have no clue about it) and try not to lose in the first 20 turns or look too stupid.

So, what do I want to say with all that? Basically: If you see a weedy move in my play (and you will) mention it in the lurker thread (if we have one sometimes) so I can read about it afterwards and learn.

[Serdoa]

After working again much too long I thought I could start to post my thoughts about the choices of the other players regarding civ and leader - maybe catching up in the postcount at least :blob:.

So, whom do we have:

scooter - Inca, Bismarck
SleepingMoogle - Maya, Suri
Twinkletoes - Ottomans, Washington
Dazedroyalty - HRE, Zara

Hopefully I did not mix anything up, as I wrote them down today in the morning before I went to work. I have them ordered by my feeling about strongest to weakest player/pick (though that might change depending on the map details, when I realize something I have overlooked - or when they kill me ).

Before I start to talk about the picks some general thoughts on the starting techs:

Starting Techs

I have read often now that Agriculture, The Wheel and Mining are the strong starting techs and I tend to agree.

Agriculture: Normally you will need this tech soon. So soon that if you do not start with it, it often will be the first tech you research. Starting with it you can improve your food bonuses immediately after your worker is born, no matter what those are, because Animal Husbandry is only one tech away. It is also together with The Wheel the most expensive starting tech.

The Wheel: It is also a needed tech as everyone wants roads sooner then later, without it you cannot get Pottery (and therefore Granaries and Cottages) and it does provide you with the possibility to build War Chariots if you have horses. Additionally it is together with Agri the most expensive starting tech in beakers and your worker will have to do something even if you mismanaged your techs.

Mining: It sets you directly up for Bronze Working and therefore Slavery if you so wish. That alone should be enough explanation why it is good.

Mysticism is together with Fishing and Hunting one of the weaker starting techs.

Fishing: You can build workboats and work water tiles. That will only do you good if you happen to start coastal with some water food bonuses. Other then that you do not really gain something immediately - except for if you are "Spain on a lake" maybe

Hunting: It does start you with a scout. Maybe nice if you play with huts on but I never do that, and we will also not do it in this PBEM. In MP the other players also might not refrain from attacking you like the AI does it at the start of the game. With a scout start you have to build a warrior sooner then later, maybe setting you behind in expansion. Also if you are in an attacking mood worker steals are impossible. Still, I think it is not that bad in quick speed as everything is build faster and so you probably start sooner with a warrior anyway. Though I might very well be wrong with that as I have no experience with quick speed.

Mysticism: Gives you a headstart on religions, though in my opinion they are better left alone at the start, as you have better things to do (like get worker techs and expand). There are for sure some possibilities with it but especially in this game with 4 out of 5 players starting with Myst the chances are high that somebody would snag the religion before you do it. Without the headstart on religion the only thing remaining is the possibility to build monuments and start very soon with Stonehenge (though in this game getting Stonehenge does have the same issues as getting a religion).

Ok, enough about starting techs. Next posts will be about the picks. I promise!

[Serdoa]

So, lets start with scooter.



Inca is a strong pick as the Terrace will be build in every city anyway and the 2 culture provided give you a free creative trait basically. It also makes sure that no monument is needed. Expansive will additionally make the production of the terrace faster and also make it easier to keep up in worker count with his expansion. Surely, scooter has already with that a strong combination going. Still, there is more.

Quechua as warrior replacements will let him easily defend against barbs (if we have them) and in SP they can even be used to rush someone. But on quick speed and in MP I think they will obsolete even more quickly then normally, meaning that I will not have to think to much about it if he does not start directly on top of me. But I am pretty sure that he will not try to rush anyone with them anyway. My bet is that he will try to expand as quickly as possible. With his second trait Industrious he opens up the possibility to build some of the early wonders without hurting the expansion too much.

His starting techs give him some possibilities for that. Mysticism in itself will probably not be of much interest to him and I am pretty sure that he will not try to go for Stonehenge. But Masonry is only a tech away and will open up pyramids and TGW. Sure he will open that up with Mining (a tech he has to research soon) anyway, but at least he will get a discount for knowing a prereq. Also it opens up the possibility for him to go for an early religion, strengthening his fast expansion skills by providing some happiness and opening the path for The Oracle or Monotheism/Org. Rel. Even better is that his second starting tech is Agriculture. Depending on the map that might mean that he will be able to pursue an early religion without having to deal with an idle worker.

So, to summarize, pluses and minuses from my point of view:

+ Fast Expansion
+ only Industrious leader in the game and therefore
+ has a good shot at some early wonders like Pyramids, Oracle, TGW or TGL
+ best starting tech-combination of anyone in the game for an early religion
- UU no big threat probably
- has not much going for himself if he cannot use the first big expansion to get into the lead (and might get an alliance of some player against him if he does too good)

Some other points to keep in mind:

° high chances that he ignores Stonehenge
° probably peaceful till he has a technological lead
° one of the better players

[Serdoa]

I had hoped that at least that nice picture would produce a lurker comment Maybe nobody is reading this thread except for me? Or is my English that bad that nobody wants to read my posts? I hope that is not the case because I am about to speak about the second player now, SleepingMoogle.



Maya starts with Mysticism and Mining. Myst might give him a shot at a early religion but I think he will not go for it. Depending on the start (no unforested hill) his worker might have nothing to do if he directly goes for it and with 3 other players also starting with Myst - one of them set up better with Agri as second starting tech - it seems to be a big gamble. Also he has gone for an early religion in PBEM3 so he might not want to redo that, especially as one of his traits is Creative, meaning a religion for border pops is unnecessary. And with his UB the Ball Court giving +3 happiness and being only half cost due to being creative he also does not need a religion for happiness. Depending on the map he might even delay Monarchy for quite some time. So, very high probability for no early religion and again, this time for being creative, no Stonehenge.

Looking at his UU, the Holkan, what sticks out is that it does not need Copper or Iron to be build and is immune to first strikes. That means that even if he would have no metals he could still produce the counter unit for mounted stacks. Might come in handy if his metals (which I am sure we all will have) are pillaged or not connected at the time of the attack.

All in all I think we have here another civ set up for a quick expansion, better suited then Inca to defend those expansions and also better suited for the game after the first expansion wave with his Ball Courts making bigger cities easier to realise. I would again bet that he will only fight an early war if he is forced to do so. But after the first expansion he will go quickly for his Ball Courts which will also enable Catapults.

Summary:

+ Fast Expansion
+ Happiness less of an issue
- UU is only good for defensive measures

° high chances he ignores Stonehenge
° probably peaceful intentions till technological lead
° might delay Monarchy and therefore Feudalism quite some time

[SilentConfusion]

I had hoped that at least that nice picture would produce a lurker comment Maybe nobody is reading this thread except for me? Or is my English that bad that nobody wants to read my posts? I hope that is not the case because I am about to speak about the second player now, SleepingMoogle.

I am reading your posts. The picture is obviously crafted, so took some effort. I appreciate the picture, but the stuff I'm more interested in is the analysis. And your English is completely fine. I wouldn't have guessed it wasn't a first language from your posts.

The posts are insightful and have a lot in them. They are good to read. I look forward to the rest of your analysis of the other players. Keep them up. And good luck in this game.

[Krill]

Serdoa, your posts are freaking awesome

[Serdoa]

Yeah lurker comments

@silentconfusion

Thank you. You are right that the pictures are crafted. I've searched a little bit for a possibility to get the background of the tooltips opaque as that would surely look better, but I could find no way. But they are mainly here for giving you a quick glance on everything there is regarding the picks so that I do not have to write down every single detail (like that the ball court is the replacement for the colosseum) and I think they work in that regard.

And I will keep up the analysis as they are mainly for the lurkers but also for myself to remember later what I thought at the beginning and see if it came true.

@Krill

Thank you too. Hopefully they are not only awesome because I am completely off about my thoughts on my opponents. Not that any lurker could (or should!) comment on that.

Btw: I am trying to wrap my head about the demographics screen and the espionage system as I never used that before (not even remotely worthwhile in SP except for a quick estimation on how one's doing). I guess I've found two articles helping with the demographics screen (here and here) but I am not sure if there are

a) not better ones
b) if those are not outdated

I guess asking for out-of-game information regarding "technical points" of the game should be ok. If that is the case, does someone have some links for me regarding reading the demo-screen and how to back-calculate from the demographics?

[Serdoa]

The third pick we will take a closer look at, ladies and gentleman, is:



Washington of the Ottomans!

So what does TT have here? The only civ in the game which starts without Mysticism but instead of with The Wheel and Agriculture. These are good starting techs and normally set you up well. In this case though, his leader is Washington, who is Expansive and Charismatic. Charismatic means that he should want to get Monuments into play - and therefore he will need Myst. Maybe he even tries to go directly for Myst -> Medi/Poly to grab an early religion but I would not think so. He does not need monuments THAT early and as the only competitor without Myst he would delay better techs only to gamble on something he does not really need. Still, he might go for Myst early and try to build Stonehenge - to tell the truth I am certain that he will try that.

Anyway, the reason why he does not need a religion lies in his UB. The Hammam is a very nice building as you will want to build it often anyway and getting 2 happy on top of the 2 health is very good. That also implies the possibility that this might set him up for a beeline, as it was the case with the Mayan and there Ball Court. Basically it is even the same as the Mayan, only that he reaches his target one tech earlier. Might be that he tries do build Hanging Gardens directly after the first Hammam - this building makes sure that he can do something useful with that one additional pop point per city.

Lastly we have his UU - the Janissary. I am really not sure what to do with that unit. Yes, it is strong against all medieval units but assuming that you have not won anyway due to a techlead it does not provide you that much, as it comes with Gunpowder, though does not provide anything against those Gunpowder units. Still, it is supplemented well by his Charismatic trait and he might be able to crush a neighbor with it.

All in all I am not so sure what TTs plans are for this game. He was third to pick a leader and I have the feeling that he picked it for Expansive not for Charismatic. The reason for my feeling is that I would rather combine Charismatic with Spiritual to be able to switch in and out of Vassalage and Theocracy and really leverage that advantage. Also I would maybe even go for a civ with a strong mounted unit in the later eras of the game, Byzantine probably or (if I like to gamble) Russia. He did none of that and therefore I would guess on two points:

- that he might have warmongering in mind, but surely not early
- that he was set for an Expansive leader

The expansive leader it probable because he needs something to have a chance to keep up in the first expansion and he has really nothing else to support him with that except for his starting techs. Maybe he looked then what other trait he could combine. Still, the slight chance exists that he wanted exactly that leader because he will basically start with 2 more happy and health then normally and can build on that with the Hammam. If that is the case, the faster promotions will have only been icing on the cake for him and I doubt that he will really try to leverage that part of the trait.

So, lets do again the summary:

+ happiness providing UB
+ good UU in the middle of the tree
+ best starting techs
- traits do not supplement each other well
- eager to go for an early wonder without having the tech and not being Ind

° interested in Stonehenge and maybe Hanging Gardens
° maybe warmongering in mind for the late medieval era
° together with me the only one who has no (kind of) Creative trait