Spoilers - Lurker Discussion Thread (No Players)

[darrelljs]

So, who is going to win ?

Darrell

[Rowain]

Hard to say from the get go But therre are 2 things which surprise me.

a) the celt leader choosing Brennus instead of Boudica. If you are playing a Highland-map with Celts aggressive warmongering is what you want to do so why not pick up an additional free promo?

b) that nobody has chosen the Mongols (Kubilai Khan preferred). On this map those Keshiks can land some nice surprise attacks.

[Cyneheard]

Kublai or Genghis would both be very strong, I agree. And they have much better traits than Brennus, or even Boudica: Both get useful economic traits (at Noble, Imp is quite solid; Cre is always great) to go with Aggressive. And Gers basically give them extra UUs down the line, with easily-built 7XP Knights, Cuirs, and Cav (or even 11XP with Theo and Vassalage). It sounds like SleepingMoogle wanted something to support his economy, and that's why he took Spi Brennus over Agg Boudica.

It seems several teams thought about picking Asoka, but Spi/Org wasn't tempting enough.

Interesting note, after reading Timmy's comments:
I don't think there's that big of a difference between Fast Workers in normal speed versus quick speed; it's certainly an overrated difference. FWs are almost equally strong in both time scales, it's Epic where the FW is less useful.
The biggest advantage of a fast worker is the ability to move onto almost any tile and either road it or chop the forest that very turn. Certainly being able to instantly move onto hills for mining helps, as well, but those are where the FW gains tactical flexibility or accelerates early production. With careful micro, even regular workers can avoid spending large numbers of turns doing nothing but move except for those previous cases.

Assuming no Hagia Sophia or Serfdom:
On normal speed, a regular worker needs:
2t to road, and possibly 1t to move. Fast worker: 2t.
4t to move + chop a forest. Fast worker: 3t, unless it's a forested hill.
5t to move + mine a hill. Fast worker: 4t.

On quick speed, a regular worker needs:
2t to road. Fast worker, as before.
4t to move + chop a forest (FW: as before)
4t to move + mine a hill (FW: 3t)

However, HS becomes a much stronger wonder on quick, because now it's a 1t road. And with FWs, it's a 1t road onto just about anything (Ruff made good use of that in PBEM1).

[Krill]

Scooter is already.

Ethiopia start with Mining/Hunting, and is researching AH when he needs Agri to hook up irrigated wheat, which is better than the cow anyway.

[darrelljs]

Scooter is already.

Ethiopia start with Mining/Hunting, and is researching AH when he needs Agri to hook up irrigated wheat, which is better than the cow anyway.

Yeah, that was my reaction too.

Darrell

[darrelljs]

Also not a huge fan of Rome growing to size 2 before starting the Worker. That's never faster. I wonder if he'll be able to properly leverage his Praets. This was a tough map decision for me. Rome started in the corner, so if I move him closer to let him use his Praets it screws his neighbor, but if I don't he'll get less benefit on his awesome UU. In the end I decide the map rolled it that way, so that's the way it had to stay.

Darrell

[sunrise089]

I think the Celts pick was very foolish, and Brennus over Boudica even worse. Celts are pretty terrible - their UB is actually nerfed by their UU. I know everyone thinks "OMG hills, Gallics FTW!," but Impis and Keshiks are equally useful and good UUs in general. I really only like Gallics on defense, since their basically equal to unpromoted longbows or even better.

@Cyneheard - The biggest advantage(s) of fast workers is what you mention as well as the ability to road a hill tile in 1T. That gives so much tactical flexibility, and it's only increased on highlands.

[darrelljs]

I find Brennus to be a great leader, despite his weak UU and UB. On this map, his UU and UB absolutely rock. At 4XP (easy to get out the door), his units have:

+50% hills defense, +25% hills attack, double move on hills, +50% withdraw chance

Hills are so common on this map, and you can't kill me on them, can't hide from me on them, and I can use them like roads .

Darrell

[Kyan]

If we're picking out early game strange moves- TT choosing to research fishing that early to make use of that one solitary tile seems very sub-optimal to me.

[sunrise089]

I find Brennus to be a great leader, despite his weak UU and UB. On this map, his UU and UB absolutely rock. At 4XP (easy to get out the door), his units have:

+50% hills defense, +25% hills attack, double move on hills, +50% withdraw chance

Hills are so common on this map, and you can't kill me on them, can't hide from me on them, and I can use them like roads .

Darrell

First, I think you're overestimating how easy the second promo is during the age of melee units. When Gallics are in play it requires a settled GG, and for axes or spears is requires a settled GG and walls built. If we're talking post-classical melee units, well Chm Maces with Guerrilla 1 for free are fine, but there are lots of good Medieval UUs.

Also, 4xp is easier to get than 5xp via battles, but that isn't out the gate. And either way, AGG (via Boudica) does give a free promo out the gate.

Now, compare Brennus to Kublai. Keshiks can still move 2 tiles on hills, but they can also move 2 tiles on forests and flatland, and move way faster on roads. They get three selectable promos as easily as Celts do (not true with Boudica), and they can kill axes on hills better than Gallics can. But really, my biggest problem with 3promo Gallics is that they suck on flat land. You had better hope you can sneak attack my (and that's nerfed in PBEM) hill city, because if you walk on flat land you've got strength-6 melee units. Axes, swords, and HAs will all have odds on that stack. And after all that Kublai rocks AGG and CRE. Creative is far better than Charismatic. Obviously we can discuss uses for CHM (all traits are useful to some extent, and in a Unrestricted game you could defend Saladin of Celtia by claiming PRO helps him get walls out faster), but I think that's playing Devil's advocate a bit.