[Spoilers]Luddite- Isabella of Aztec

[luddite]

Woooooooo civ 4 time!!!
If any other players are in this thread, this is for you!

[luddite]

A little about me, first. I've been playing civ 4 since it first came out. Mostly just single player though, I don't have a whole lot of MP experience and this is actually my first PBEM game. So you might see some very strange moves from on on that side of things. You'll also see a lot of typos.

I'm fairly new to RB, but I've been posting on CFC a long time. I played a deity succession game there with Sulla, SevenSpirits, Alpaca, and uberfish, where we demonstrated the brokenness of civ V. However, the game that I'm the most proud of is still this one, where I conquered the world with a force of guerrilla 3 muskets.

I am fairly confident going in to this. I know that two of the other players (Gold Ergo Sum and Tatan) are in the "Monarch can't hold me" SG, whereas I can comfortably beat immortal, and occasionally deity.

I was thrilled to get Isabella of Aztec- Those were actually my first choices for both leader and civ. Well, Huayna Capac would really be my first choice, but I knew I'd never get him with a 4th pick... we really should have banned that guy.

The Sacrificial Alter is a FANTASTIC UB, and my favorite in the whole game. On quick speed I can whip every 3 turns without stacking unhappiness. You can build big armies fast, and get new cities developed fast also.

The jaguar is good too. It's not as strong as a regular swordsmen, but you can do a strong rush with it over forest, promote it later for a great medic, or just use it for clutch defense if you lack metal. WHILE I'm not PLANNING on doing a jaguar rush to anyone... I reserve the right to do that .

The biggest problem I have is my starting techs- hunting and mysticism! The two worst starting techs in the whole game! Luckily this is quick speed, so starting with a scout is less of a disadvantage than it is on normal (you can build a warrior in just 2 or 3 turns, if necessary). And I can get a religion if I want one.

There's some good synergy between SPI/EXP and the Aztec UB. With spiritual, you can switch in between slavery/theocracy or OR and caste system/philosophy every 4 turns. I plan to do a lot of that, this game. You can also rapidly expand, and use the alters to pay for it. I'd like to grab an early religion and the oracle, take code of laws from the oracle, and use the free culture and money from the religion to boost the expansion. I might fall behind in tech for a while, but as long as I can survive long enough to get the spiritual ultra slavery economy going, I'll bury everyone else in production. With spies banned, a religion is also the only way to see what's happening in enemy territory. Amelia might be trying something similiar- he's julias (org/imp) of sumeria (stronger axemen, earlier cheaper courthouse) so he's geared for maximum expansion.

Anyway that's the plan... we'll see how things actually turn out. I'm hoping that I don't start next to Tatan (Shaka) or plako (egypt). I'm particularly worried about plako, since he chose egypt with the 3rd pick, which implies that he really, really wanted those war chariots. However, I've noticed that a lot of the maps made here isolate us early on with water, so his war chariots might be useless. We'll just have to wait and see!

[luddite]

I guess I'll go ahead and post my initial thoughts about all the other players and their choices, since that seems to be the style here.

Gold Ergo Sum: Huayna Capac (Fin/ind) of Zulu

I think he really lucked out by getting the first pick in this game. Huayna Capac seems, to me, clearly better than the other leaders we allowed. I wish that we'd banned him instead of Gandhi. Not only is he financial, he also has the advantage of being the ONLY industrious leader in the game. Industrious isn't a very strong trait, but it can be great if you're the only one- he's basically guaranteed any wonder he wants, and can plan accordingly.

Zulu was the last pick, so there wasn't much available. The impi is a good rush/choke unit, but my guess is that he's more interested in the Ikhanda for maintanence reduction, while impis can protect him against an early mounted attack. He'll be able to get a strong economy going, if we let him develop peacefully. Other than me, he's the only player who starts with hunting, and the dreaded scout.

Mardoc: Victoria (Fin/Imp) of Korea

The other financial leader. Imp is less strong than industrious on most maps- sure you get slightly faster settlers, but you still have to pay the maintence on the cities. His strategy is obvious- settle as many cities as possible, and fill them with financial cottages. Korea's Seowan will give him a small research boost if he gets to that point, and the Hwacha is a decent UU also. I think there's very little chance that he'll attack someone early on, but like GES, he could turn into a monster later on. He's the only other civ that starts with mysticism, so if I go for a very early religion, he could beat me to it thanks to financial.

plako: Suleiman (Phi/ Imp) of Egypt

This one is a much more interesting choice. I know plako played in PB2, and managed an impressive comeback after almost being wiped out in the beginning. He's definitely a strong player.

However... I don't know what he was thinking with his choices. He used the #3 pick to take Egypt, instead of a good leader. I very much doubt that he wanted obelisks (unless he's going for the super cheese AP victory... I don't even know if that's allowed in this game). The war chariot, however, is a scary UU- maybe even more dangerous than the praetorians. Especially on quick speed. Egypt even starts with wheel and agriculture! It would not suprise me to see him try an early rush. At least by starting with hunting, I'm one step closer to spears. If he rushes me I'll... probably be able to get spears fast enough.

There's interesting metagame considerations to this strategy. Everyone saw him pick Egypt third, so I think everyone will be on guard against a rush from him. This could allow him to just expand peacefully, while his neighbors are too afraid of a rush to build settlers. On the other hand, they might feel like they're forced to go to war with him, just for safety. I know that if I start next to him, I'll be constantly on guard for the first 60 turns or so.

Suleiman was the last leader chosen, so he didn't have lot of good options left. I'm still surprised he made that choice, though. PHI just isn't as good of an econ trait as the others- it usually only gives 1 or 2 extra GP over the course of a game- and extra GGs don't help all that much usually. However, IMP could help with a war chariot rush, by giving him a fast early GG. Out of all the players, he's the only one I who think might do an early rush- not only from his civ/leader choice, but also from his experience being rushed in PB2. Normally rushes don't work so well, but if everyone else is playing peacefully it could give him an edge.

[luddite]

Tatan: Shaka (Agg/ Exp) of France

Shaka has the ultimate rush traits. Get a couple fast workers out, than chop out a big stack of aggressive axes and go kill. However, france doesn't start with mining, which slows down that strategy a bit. It also doesn't work too well on quick speed, because by the time the Axes have moved to a nearby civ, they can build up a lot more defense. Mostly it ends up hurting both civs a lot. Hopefully he won't do this to me! My best guess, though, is that he just wanted the expansive trait for faster early expansion, and the agg trait to help defend himself.

France is a good choice- they were actually my second choice of civs. The Musketeer is draftable, so you can really surprise people with a big stack of fast-moving musketeers in the mid game. Or you can just use them for defense, since they get six moves over roads, and have no hard counter. They benefit from the AGG trait, too. I'll be watching him carefully in the midgame, in case he tries something with them.

Amelia: Julius (Imp/ Org)of Sumeria

Amelia is currently playing in the monarch-level "anyone still want to get better at civ 4" game, so he's probably the least experienced player of this group. I was really surprised to see him pick julias with the fifth leader pick, but it makes sense paired with Sumeria. He wants cheap settlers, and cheap early courthouses. However, unlike me, he has no way of boosting all those cities, so if he's not careful he'll just end up bogged down in maintence from a lot of small, undevoped cities. That's a common problem for inexperienced players. Since he doesn't start with mysticism, and also doesn't need Code of Laws to build the Ziggurat, I doubt he'll compete with me for either an early religion or the Oracle.

The Vulture is a fun UU. In an even fight, it will lose against the stock axemen, but it's better against anything else. It will be a good defense for him against Plako's war chariots (or my jaguars). It can also defend decently against horse archers. However, he can't really rush with it, because it loses to the regular axemen. I expect him to be another player using a peaceful strategy in the early game.

Adlain: Hammurabi (Agg/ Org) of England

I see a continuing theme here. With our leader restrictions, most of the leaders with purely econ traits like FIN/EXP are banned (I was so lucky to get Isabella, where both traits help my economy), so people are going with one econ trait, plus agg to defend themselves. His strategy will probably be to expand rapidly and stay at peace until late in the game, and hope to run us over with drafted redcoats.

The redcoat, IMHO, is an overrated unit. It's great against the AI because it wins all the even battles of rifle vs. rifle. However, in MP that rarely happens- whoever is on defense can pound invading rifles with collateral so that the bonus doesn't really matter, and they end up doing most of their fighting against mounted units, where they get no bonus. And that's in addition to the fact that redcoats come so late in the game, longer than most games take to be decided by. However, I have a feeling that this game will last a long time, so we might actually see them in action.

[luddite]

One question I have is- how do others feel about the Jaguar? I know that I, personally, consider it a strong early UU, but others might disagree. Would someone near me feel threatened by it? Or would they feel more safe, since I have "weaker swords"? Since I'm not aggressive, that does hurt my rush potential, especially the lack of cheap barracks.

fun fact- A unit with medic 1 woodsman 3 is just as good for healing as one with medic 3. The best healer in the game is one with medic 3, woodsman 3 and jags help a lot with getting that. They can heal anything in 2 turns. I'll probably need 2 GGs to do that, though, which might not be worth it. For an early healer, though- they're great. 5xp woodsman 3 is better than 5 XP medic 1.

[Rowain]

One question I have is- how do others feel about the Jaguar? I know that I, personally, consider it a strong early UU, but others might disagree.

I can't speak for your opponents only for myself
For your Jags you need IW which given your lack of worker techs means they will come late. At that time everyone should have Axes (if there is Copper) which cost the same but get an +50% against your Jags.

OTOH your idea of using the halftime whip-anger to get a huge Army a lot faster then your opponents is a thing I would like to see

[Krill]

I'm going to laugh if you get a food poor map.

[luddite]

Well even if they get bronze hooked up quickly, you don't have time to build a whole lot of axes before the jags hit, unless you really prioritize them. The trick is to take someone by surprise. The last time I tried jags in a multiplayer game, I hit his capital with 8 jags when he only had 2 archers to defend.

I'm going to laugh if you get a food poor map.

yeah... that would be annyoing.

[alexrdavies]

Hi there, it's your lurker checking in

I think Jaguars are amazing for a short war relying on surprise - get one or two with Woodsman II from barbs, turn up before they've deforested their crosses, and do something fancy with your double move (even if it's just standing on their copper before they even knew you were there).

They'd also be great for a lot of the 'gimmick' maps which put iron miles from the capital on some island.

On the other hand, once the war is underway I feel they lose their element of surprise and become inferior to both axes and swords. So basically, they're only worthwhile if you use them effectively and strike a decisive blow quickly.

I'd also flip around what Rowain said... it's quite possible to get Iron Working in good time (especially if your neighbours are playing a farmer's gambit), but you might have to slow down your own expansion to do so. Are you willing to do that? I guess you can't really decide till you've seen the map.

[luddite]

Hey Alex! good to have you here.

To be honest I probably won't do a rush, with jags or otherwise. I feel like even if its successful and you kill your neighbor, you end up behind vs. everyone else. But we'll have to wait and see the map, of course.