RB Pitboss #1 SPOILER - Mali

[Kyan]

Hi,

Winterfell, Lothering, Denerim - thanks for sharing what you're reading and playing at the moment.

-Kylearan

haha kyle you beat me to the punch. i was about to write literally the same thing.

Thanks for the update Dsp!

[dsplaisted]

[SIZE="6"]The First Battle of NIH[/SIZE]

At the same time as I was mounting the attack on Elkad, I had been building up troops outside Munro's capital of NIH. Kodii was under attack on two fronts from Broker and Munro, so by putting pressure on Munro I was hoping to divert his forces from attacking Kodii. Here is what the territory in that area looks like:



I was gathering my stack on tile A. Munro had a defensive stack on tile B, presumably to prevent me from moving there and bombarding down the city defenses. We have a turn order agreement where he moves first. On turn 169 I moved my stack to tile C, which forced him to move his defensive stack to tile D. Then on turn 170 I moved back to tile A, and he moved back to tile B on turn 171. The point of this maneuvering was to get rid of the fortify bonuses that he had on tile B. After he moved on turn 171, here is what the forces in the area looked like:



I attacked his stack. One of the four Cannons retreated, and then all my Rifles won their battles:



This was much better than I had been expecting. Based on my sims, I was expecting to lose all 4 Cannons and two Rifles. Here is what the stacks looked like after his was reduced to one defender:



I was considering wiping out the last Rifleman with a Mace, and then deleting the Mace. However, after some discussion with Shadyforce, I ended up leaving 3 Rifles and 2 Maces on that hill. It turned out that this probably wasn't a good idea, as next turn he was able to wipe out that stack at the cost of 2 Catapults, 1 Cavalry, 1 Mace, and 1 Crossbow. He also sent two catapults against the remainder of my stack on tile A to deter me from attacking the hill tile that turn.

[dsplaisted]

So Dler took over for Kodii, and Munro ended up vassalizing to Dler! That was surprising. I had a chat with Dler to figure out where he stood and bring him up to speed on the game.

Dler seems a bit reticent to go along with the attack on Exploit. Here's the full chat, which includes a decent overview of the game's history. Sorry the formatting is not better.

07:45
eu: Dler?

m_h: hey daniel
07:46
eu: so I'm very curious as to why Munro suddenly vassalized to you...
07:48
m_h: on my first turn i noticed he was the only one at war and was looking thin. sorry i acted on that quickly before reading the full back storey on the game. Did this move do something drastic to our alliance of 3?

eu: not as long as you're still on-board

m_h: i am
07:50
i have civs on both sides of me with only a few more turns of a peace treaty and wanted to clear my borders some of threat in case they decide to go against me

having him capitulate to us will elimante one of those threats for the current time

eu: can he un-capitulate later?
07:51
m_h: i think he could if he gets a certain perctantage of population / land mass down the road
07:52
eu: I thought he would already have that... he's bigger than you are I thought

m_h: lol ya, i will check that out further to make sure

eu: anyway, you are aware that pretty much everyone was joining together to attack Exploit?
07:53
before Kodii left the only thing blocking that was whether Munro was going to be part of that alliance
07:54
now that he's vassalized to you it doesn't seem like it will be an issue

m_h: yep i have been informed that most are against exploit. i think this will give us more options now though
07:55
eu: I think it makes sense to attack exploit now, not that the alliance will last all that long...

m_h: you able to give me a little back story on exploit? has he been attacking us?
07:56
eu: no

we just want to dogpile him

m_h: is he the largest threat?

eu: yes

he's been in the lead for a long time

m_h: ahead in tech?

eu: in # of cities

regoarrarr is the second biggest threat
07:57
m_h: maybe he could be used in our alliance though

eu: originally there was the UTA (ultimate tech alliance) with rego, sunrise, Elkad, broker, and the Lins

and everyone else joined into the UTA
07:58
er, everyone else joined into the NUTA

then somewhere around turn 150 (I think), the NUTA attack on rego stalled

(mainly because half of it was Imhotep who isn't really giving the game much effort, and rego was able to wipe out Imhotep's half of the stack)
07:59
so shady, Kodii, and I teamed up with Rego and Sunrise

we should have/wanted to get Broker and/or the Lins with us, but the diplomacy didn't work out for that
08:00
still, we were able to get a tech advantage and make some (difficult) progress against Elkad

we took two of his Cities

unfortunately Broker/Munro took several more of yours
08:01
That may have been because Kodii just didn't have the time to give the game much attention so he wasn't playing optimally

m_h: so broker had taken my main city and other cities?
08:02
eu: broker and/or munro took like 3 of your eastern cities I think, then later broker made a mounted break for your capital and was able to raze it
08:03
After he razed your capital, broker was willing to accept peace if Kodii would cede Urumqi to him

m_h: i personally would love to set up for revenge against munroe with possibly bringing exploit on with us to shake things up

eu: along with peace he would join the anti-Exploit alliance
08:04
m_h: have you guys had any of that alliance attack you in the past?
08:05
eu: I think the main skirmishes have been Exploit attacked the Lins, Imhotep and shadyforce tried to attack Rego without success, shady and I attacked Elkad with some success, and Munro and Broker attacked you

The two main threats right now are Exploit and Regoarrarr
08:06
if there are two main alliances which are rather balanced, that just enables one or both of those two to get further ahead

so it makes sense to go along with the dogpile on exploit for now
08:07
Regoarrarr has been painting Exploit as a huge threat for some time now, I'm not sure that he's much more of a threat than Rego is, but Broker is convinced that if he isn't stopped soon he will be entirely self-sufficient
08:08
m_h: right now with exploit being setup to take on the entire board what if he capitulated with us. would something like that work? he surely wont be able to last against everyone.

just wondering if we can somehow use him to benefit ourselves
08:09
eu: (exploit does have 26 cities, rego only has 19)

With Exploit's size I'm pretty sure he could just un-capitulate whenever he wanted
08:10
m_h: i'll take my laptop into work tonight so i can check out the history of the game

our alliance is the 3 some?
08:11
eu: yep: me you and shadyforce

it's kind of a secret

m_h: k cool

k

so no one knows of our alliance?

eu: we haven't announced it

m_h: ok

eu: have you talked to Exploit about him capitulating/joining us or whatever?
08:12
m_h: not yet, was a thought but i think it is very possible

eu: the issue I see is that there has been a lot of side-switching recently
08:13
plus the fact that to make much progress you need an unbalanced alliance

if we get Exploit to join us, then the result will be a more balanced set of alliances, which we don't want
08:14
m_h: i see this email went out to munro also. is he allianced with us? I think him and i only have around 8 turns left on our treaty and since he has attacked me in the past i do not fully trust him
08:15
eu: If you're talking about the email I sent, I included him because he vassalized to you, and broker because I though he might also know what was going on
08:16
I was very surprised when he vassalized to you, I would have thought it more likely that it would be the other way around

m_h: lol i had a couple of huge stacks next to a couple of his cities. i could of taken 3 of his cities within the next couple of turns
08:17
eu: I had a large stack next to his capital, so all his forces were occupied defending against my stack

m_h: lol

ya so he didnt have much choice

eu: so what was your agreement with Munro

did you have much discussion?
08:18
m_h: i guess should of held off and grabbed a couple of his cities first then had him do that but didnt want to chance him capitulating with someone else

havent chat with him as of yet

eu: so you just sent the capitulation offer in-game?

m_h: yea he wasnt online during that turn
08:19
my west side is very thin and needed to act quickly so i can return troops to the west which will take 4 or so turns

eu: west side is me
08:20
m_h: so you have my full west border?

eu: yep

m_h: shoot, ok
08:21
so we currently have 10 turn treatys setup
08:22
eu: you and Munro you mean?

m_h: nah yourself and myself

munro and i have less then a 10 turn treaty setup
08:23
eu: I think the game will enforce at least 10 turns

m_h: i am in for the long haul with our alliance of 3 so no worries there
08:24
not logged into game yet so need to familarize myself with where everyone is situated
08:26
eu: well you don't need to worry about me attacking you
08:29
m_h: dsplaisted almost has biology
08:30
eu: I am dsplaisted :-p

m_h: lol ok

eu: who did you think I was?

m_h: lol just getting familair with the board
08:31
hopefully tonight will be a slow night and i can get caught up

[novice]

Good job being the bigger man and getting this game moving again.

[dsplaisted]

When I posted on "The First Battle of NIH", I was building up forces to attack Munro and was expecting there to be a second battle of NIH. When Munro capitulated to Dler, my troops were teleported out of his land, and so I sent them north to attack Imhotep. Imhotep ended up gifting most of his cities to Exploit, so now my stack is stationed outside of Exploit's city of "Imho's Revenge."

Here's the turnlog for turns 170 to 190:
T170/1100 - Lighthouse finished in LeaveItToBeaver, start Barracks. Settler finished in Albuquerque, start Theatre (now at 2 war weariness). Double-whip Barracks in Bant. Settler from Albuquerque moves to city site by Iron. Draft Wolf 359. Draft Strong Badia.
T171/1110 - Finish Military Tradition, start Scientific Method. Barracks finished in Bant, start Cannon. Theatre finished in Albuquerque, start Cavalry. Cannon finished in Strong Badia, start Cavalry. Found city of Lothering 1E of iron, start Granary. Draft Wolf 359. Switch to Drydock in Naya. Massive success attacking Munro/Morgan's stack outside of his capital (NIH). At the cost of 3 Cannons, I wiped out 9 Riflemen and 1 musket. In my sims I usually lost 2 Rifles and all 4 Cannons. During the attack, Great General (Geronimo) is born in ChironBetaPrime. Request Astronomy from Rego, which will obsolete the Colossus but speed up Scientific Method research and let me build frigates. I leave 3 healthy rifles and 2 maces on the hill next to NIH.
T172/1120 - Settler finished in Sullla, start Cavalry. Cannon finished in Isengard, start Cannon. Settler from Sullla moves towards city site 3S1W of Albuquerque. Whip drydock for 4 pop in Naya. Morgan wipes out my mini-stack next to NIH, losing 2 catapults, 1 cavalry, 1 mace, and 1 crossbow. He also burns two catapults against my forest stack, presumably to deter me from attacking the stack he left on the hill. I sim out the results of attacking the hill, and they aren't good enough for me to want to attack. Draft Wolf 359, Bant, ChironBetaPrime, Albuquerque, and Sullla.
T173/1130 - Get Steam power from regoarrarr. Coal discovered between Strong Badia and Zendikar, on a tile that was already mined. Drydock finished in Naya, start Ironclad. Draft Wolf 359. Great general attached to Skirmisher and upgraded to Rifleman outside Wolf 359. I'm planning to make him Woodsman III (Morgan has a Woodsman III rifleman in his capital). Draft Root Canal. Double-whip taoist monastery in Timbuktu.
T174/1140 - Taoist Monastery finished in Timbuktu, start Harbor. Cannon finished in Root Canal, start Confucian Missionary. Finish chop outside CBP to finish Confucian Monastery this turn (before Scientific Method finishes in two turns). Oh Deer!'s deer tile flipped back to Kodii, so I switch the city to build culture. Found city of Denerim 2S of Albuquerque's pigs, and 3N of Lothering. Steal pigs from Albuquerque and start building Granary. Finish chop outside Lothering into Granary. Triple-whip Cannon in Bant. Draft Zendikar. Draft Strong Badia to size 6, and then triple-whip Cavalry. Draft Wolf 359. Upgrade 2 Caravels to Frigate to defend against Elkad's Frigate which is headed my way.
T175/1150 - Esper celebrates We Love the Monarch day. Cannon finished in Isengard, start Cavalry. Cannon finished in Bant, start Harbor. Granary finished in Lothering, start Library. Confucian Monastery finished in ChironBetaPrime, start Observatory. Cavalry finished in Strong Badia, start Cannon. Shuffle Skirmisher out of Zendikar towards CBP to raise happy cap. Draft Wolf 359. Whip Granary in Winterfell. Double-whip Ironclad in Naya.
T176/1160 - Broker razes Kodii's capital! Scientific Method finished, start Biology (due t184 at 100%). Cavalry finished in Albuquerque, start Harbor. Cannon finished in Zendikar, start another. Granary finished in Winterfell, start Barracks. Ironclad (which was whipped) finished in Naya, start another. Give Crab tile back to Naya. This will let it grow to size 4 in one turn, while Timbuktu will still grow to size 6 in 2 turns. Draft Wolf 359. Draft Esper, and give fish back to Esper to regrow to happy cap (growth was stagnant with two scientists). Drafted Rifle goes towards barb city of Phoenician to finally take it out.
T177/1170 - Kodii has made peace with Broker, apparently Broker is joining our alliance. This will hopefully free up Kodii to attack Munro's southern cities which he says are very undefended. Confucian Missionary finished in Root Canal, start another one. Cavalry finished in Sullla, start Mint. Draft Wolf 359. Elkad blockades Naya and Timbuktu. Timbuktu is starving due to lack of happiness now. Send a Skirmisher from Naya that way for MP duty. Switch Timbuktu to Barracks to be whipped next turn. Make peace with Elkad and give him Steel.
T178/1180 - Harbor finished in Albuquerque, start Mint. Rifleman finished in Jund, start Cannon. Spy finished in Wolf 359, start Spy. Granary finished in Denerim, start Barracks. Switch Timbuktu from Barracks back to Harbor. Oh Deer! regains control of Deer tile. Raze Barb city of Phoenician. Draft cities of Wolf 359, LeaveItToBeaver, Jund, Timbuktu. Munro moved 11 Rifles to Hill 1N of NIH, and left 3 Rifles and 2 Muskets to guard the hill 1W. I consolidate my stack on tile A.
T179/1190 - Munro makes peace with Dler (Kodii's replacement) and vassalizes to him! I'm not sure if that's intentional or not. This automatically means I make peace with Munro, and kicks my troops out of his land. A spy sabotaged Cavalry finished in Isengard, start Cannon. Double-whip Barracks in LeaveItToBeaver. Oh Deer!'s borders expand, which means I will probably finally be able to keep control of its Deer tile. Production switches to Lighthouse. Draft Wolf 359.
T180/1200 - Draft Wolf 359. Confucian Missionary arrives in Naya and spreads religion. Give Esper's fish to Winterfell. My stack is assembled (9:30 pm 1/11/2010) and I will attack Imhotep next turn. I have 4 Cavalry, 8 Cannons, and 30 Riflemen. Finish Barracks in LeaveItToBeaver, start Courthouse.
T181/1210 - Ironclad finished in Naya, resume Cannon. Harbor finished in Timbuktu, resume Barracks. Confucian Missionary finished in Root Canal, heads towards LeaveItToBeaver, start Worker. Harbor finished in Bant, start Courthouse. Library finished in Lothering, start Harbor. Declare war on Imhotep! Attack Thangorodrim with Cavalry. First Cavalry upgrades to C2 and wins versus War Elephant at 77.9% odds. Beyond that he only has a Catapult and a Warrior in the city, which die easily. A Mint and a Grocer are left in the city, and I keep it. 144 gold was plundered from the city.
T182/1220 - Cannon finished in Isengard, start Cannon. Mint finished in Sullla, start Levee. Double-whip Barracks in Timbuktu. Draft Albuquerque, Sullla, Isengard, ChironBetaPrime, Zendikar.
T183/1230 - Esper celebrates We love the Monarch day. Cannon finished in Zendikar, build wealth (Rego will finish Railroad next turn and I'll start a Machine Gun). Barracks finished in Timbuktu, start Library. Exploit has a Chariot 2N of Angbad, so he will probably be able to see the size of my stack (if he didn't already via spies). Spread Conficianism in LeaveItToBeaver. Draft Wolf 359, Zendikar, Strong Badia. League of Lin asks for Scientific Method, I accept. Imhotep apparently gifts 4 of his cities to Exploit.
T184/1240 - Biology finished, start Physics. Request Railroad from Regoarrarr. Give Scientific Method to Broker, Munro, shadyforce, sunrise. Biology to Rego, Lins, shadyforce. Cannon finished in Naya, start Machine Gun. Cannon finished in Isengard, start Machine Gun. Worker finished in Root Canal, start another Worker. Lighthouse finished in Oh Deer!, start Barracks. Switch Zendikar from Gold to Machine Gun. Draft Wolf 359. Railroads start going up. Switch Winterfell to Harbor (to be whipped next turn).
T185/1250 - Mint finished in Albuquerque, start Worker. Attack and take city of Angbad. Mint and Colosseum remain. I sacrifice one Cannon and lose 4 Rifles. I could have sent in more Cannons, but I figured Rifles are cheaper since I can just draft them. I wasn't expecting to lose 4 of them though, I think I had some bad luck (I lost one 65% battle without doing any damage to the defender!). Draft Wolf 359. Switch Bant to Machine Gun. Double-whip Harbor in Winterfell. Double-whip Cannon in Jund.
T186/1260 - Give Scientific Method to Dler. Harbor finished in Winterfell, start Barracks. Cannon finished in Strong Badia, start Machine Gun. Cannon finished in Jund, start National Park. Spy finished in Esper, start Spy. Draft Wolf 359, Esper. Whip Machine gun in Bant for 5 population, overflow will go into Courthouse. My stack advances towards Imhotep's capital. It's defended by an Axe and an Impi, so I will probably be able to take it next turn with a Cavalry strike. Switch Isengard's tiles to sacrifice growth to finish Machine gun this turn.
T187/1270 - Capture Imhotep's capital (and last city). Granary and Mint survive. Machine gun finished in Bant, continue Courthouse. Machine Gun finished in Isengard, start Machine Gun. Worker finished in Albuquerque, start Worker. Worker finished in Root Canal, start Worker. Draft Wolf 359. Triple-whip Machine Gun in Strong Badia. Triple-whip Machine Gun in Zendikar.
T188/1280 - Exploit attacks my stack with 3 Cavalry. One dies, 2 Flank my Cannons. Of the 2 that survived, one is left out in the open where I can pick it off. Exploit has managed to gather 11 Rifles in Imho's Revenge, the next city I'll be attacking. Levee finished in Sullla, start Machine Gun. Whipped Machine Guns finish in Strong Badia and Zendikar, start more Machine Guns. Thangorodrim has come out of revolt and starts work on a Courthose, to be whipped next turn. Draft Timbuktu, LeaveItToBeaver, Wolf 359. Whip Courthouse in Bant for 3 population. I pick off the wounded Cavalry with my own Cavalry, and then move my stack to the hill SW of Imho's Revenge.
T189/1290 - Exploit gets a Great Engineer. Worker finished in Albuquerque, start Cannon. Courthouse finished in Bant, start Confucian Temple. Barracks finished in Winterfell, start Lighthouse. Harbor finished in Lothering, start Barracks. Barracks finished in Denerim, start Mint. I mishandled my workers and won't be able to reinforce the stack outside Imho's Revenge this turn. So the attack will have to be in 2 turns. I should have at least 41 Rifles and 13 Cannons to attack with then. Imhotep currently has 16 Riflemen on defense and about 10 other units. I whip a Courthouse (for 3 population) in Thangorodrim. Draft Denerim, draft Wolf 359, draft Jund.
T190/1300 - Courthouse finished in Thangorodrim, start Granary. Machine gun finished in Isengard, start Machine Gun. Worker finished in Root Canal, start Confucian Missionary. Exploit attacks my stack. He loses:
1 Cannon, 8 Catapults, 11 Riflemen, 1 Cavalry
I lose:
9 Riflemen
I use my combat engineers to build a railroad to the tile my stack is on and reinforce it with 20 Rifles, 8 Cannons, and 2 Machine guns. Draft Thangorodrim, Draft Wolf 359. Whip Courthouse in LeaveItToBeaver.

Notice in bold that there was some combat action this turn. After Exploit attacked I was able to basically double my stack size with reinforcements, so I should be able to take the city next turn. Even though in the battle this turn Exploit sustained more losses than I did, I am kind of annoyed at myself because if I had managed my workers correctly I would have been able to get most of my reinforcements to the stack last turn, which would have probably meant even less losses for me. On the other hand if I had, my stack would have been overwhelming enough that Exploit might have abandoned the city, saving his troops for later when he'll have machine guns to protect them from collateral damage. I think that might be the correct thing for him to do next turn anyway, so it will be interesting to see what happens.

[dsplaisted]

From regoarrarr:

Hi guys,

Exploit has just vassalized to DLer and so the 2 of them + Munro are now at war with shady and dsp (and soon to be the rest of us too). Perhaps he didn't like the 77 tile stack I moved near his borders this turn? :-D

If this is true I don't think I want to continue playing this game. We never voted on whether vassal states would be allowed, and I think this is because we thought it obvious that they wouldn't be used. Plus, it looks like Dler came on board already on Exploit's side (despite assuring me of the contrary).

Right now I feel like either quitting the game, or just gifting all of my cities and troops to Dler. Maybe I'll change my mind after I've cooled down a bit, but if you're a lurker this would be a good time to jump in and convince me that I should keep at it.

[Krill]

Just kill Dler?

[Kyan]

From regoarrarr:

If this is true I don't think I want to continue playing this game. We never voted on whether vassal states would be allowed, and I think this is because we thought it obvious that they wouldn't be used. Plus, it looks like Dler came on board already on Exploit's side (despite assuring me of the contrary).

Right now I feel like either quitting the game, or just gifting all of my cities and troops to Dler. Maybe I'll change my mind after I've cooled down a bit, but if you're a lurker this would be a good time to jump in and convince me that I should keep at it.

SO you feel he's bending the rules and playing sly?

And your solution is to hand your cities over and let him win?

Really?

Me personally, if someone plays like that- and it's clearly become personal, i'd want to on them so hard.

Be the bigger man. Beat them fair and square. There's a LOT more pride to be achieved that way and it definitely shows more skill. Not to mention it's a good preventative to anyone trying to pull that kind of stunt on you in the future (eg. rbpb3)

[dsplaisted]

I probably spend an average of at least an hour each day on this game. That is a huge investment for me, I have tons of other worthwhile things I could be doing with that time. If I'm going to make that kind of investment, I want to play a fun, competitive game with people I respect. Based on events in this game I'm not sure if that's realistic, but I don't want to have a personal vendetta against someone in the game.

This is the second time the vassalization mechanic has been used against me, to teleport my troops out of enemy territory as they were about to take a city.

Kodii, shadyforce, and I were in a tight alliance and though we never stated it explicitly, my understanding was that we would stick together to the end of the game and together support whichever of us had the best shot at winning. When Dler came aboard, it seemed like he was reluctant to go against Exploit. So I sent him an email trying to clarify if he was planning to stick with the alliance, and he responded that he was.

Here is the email I sent him (on January 17th):

Dler,

It sounds like you are reluctant to go to war with Exploit. I can see why this is- your avenues of expansion would have to be in the direction of Broker, Munro, or me, so attacking him doesn't really help you. Plus, Exploit is your friend and he's not exactly happy that everyone wants to gang up on him...

The terms of your civilization's peace agreement with Broker were that you would split Munro's land between you, and that the two of you would join the alliance against Exploit. Since Munro capitulated to you, you can control him to some extent (ie who he goes to war with), but you don't get to take his land.

That leaves Broker as your avenue of expansion (assuming you aren't planning to attack me, which I hope is the case ). Broker does not think you can successfully attack him, and I don't know what his army or yours looks like, but I think he is probably right. Broker won the last war between your civs pretty decisively, and even if you are stronger now, there is such an advantage for the defender in this game that you would need much more than equal power to successfully attack him.

So unfortunately you are stuck in a position where you can't really expand (at least not connected to your current territory). Given that is the case, I think you should go along with the alliance against Exploit. Since Imhotep has gifted all of his cities to Exploit, Exploit is an even more powerful position. I think if the alliance against him doesn't succeed, he will be in a position to run away with the game. I would hope you would not help him do this just because he's your friend in real life.

When we were setting up our Threesome alliance, we never spelled out whether it would continue until the end of the game and we'd let one of us win (ideally), or if it would break apart before that. However, I think (especially after having worked together for so long) that the understanding between shadyforce, Kodii, and me was that we would work together to have one of our teams win, without splitting apart at the end and having each of us try to win ourselves.

I think there are two possibilities for us to win the game. We might be able to swing a domination win if we conquer enough territory. Shady and I would then suddenly gift all of our cities to you and you would win. We'd need quite a bit more territory than we have though- you need 56% of the total land area of the world, and even though I think you get half of Munro's land counted towards you (which is why your civ would be the one who gets everything gifted to it), we're still a long way off from that. If we want to try to go this route then the best chance we have is to try to take a lot of Exploit's territory. This is only a real possibility because the whole world will be allied against him. Against anyone else, they will either put up too much of a fight (since it will be just the three of us attacking them), or they won't have enough territory to get us close to the dominationlimit.

The other option is to go for a cultural victory, which I think is a real option. If each of us could generate 10 great artists, then we could just culture bomb 3 cities to legendary status and win! In reality we probably won't be able to generate quite that many, but the point is that a cultural victory is quite a lot easier when you have 3 civilizations popping great artists instead of just one.

So the question is, are you willing to help us with this, or with some other method of winning if it presents itself? I don't think you can win this game by yourself, so I the decision is whether you want to try to help Exploit win, or help one of us (which might be yourself) win. While it's OK to evaluate your civ's position when you take it over and potentially change the direction it is headed, I think it's only fair to do so based on the state of your civ in the game, and to try not to let your out-of-game relationships affect your decisions too much. So basically you should side with shadyforce and me instead of Exploit.

Please let us know what you think.

Thanks,
Daniel

Here's how he responded (the next day):

Hi Daniel,

I do fully agree with your statements. I came into the game with alot of decisions to make and do want to try and carry on with the path that the civ was headed in before I had taken over to keep the flow of the game going as it was planned. The relationship with exploit and myself in past games have always been war between the 2 of us so that has no effect on what my decisions have been. I am on board with what our alliance is game for. I can help with troops in our efforts but would like to fix up my land for the next little to repair the damage that it has sustained. Let me know how I can assist in our efforts.

Regards
Dler (Scott)

So I was always willing to let Dler win. I don't feel like sinking a huge amount of time into a game I'm no longer interested in just to spite him for turning on me.

[Rowain]

When Eyploit discusse the vassalation of Munro he explicitly stated that he has no problem to vassalize to someone if this gets him some free time and room to regain strengh so I see his move as the correct one in his situation.

Besides as one who has proposed to gift DLer enough cities so that he can win you have no right to protest a vassalation.