Map Thread: Eww, what is that? Displaying the Dregs

[Bremen]

Maybe make the center heavy on the jungle, to slow settlement/exploration? If the players all know the big 3 are in the middle, some might feel inclined to rapidly settle in that direction.

[Krill]

If it is a solid donut, they probably will settle towards the centre anyway after cities left and right.

[Thoth]

The centre could be solid with a moat of coast around it. That would tend to slow settling it as players would have to tech Sailing, found on the inner coast and then build boats.

[Mardoc]

Ok, I attempted to take into account what you all suggested. Here's what I've come up with.

Please, tear it to shreds. I've still got 3ish days before it'll be released, so I have time to fix all sorts of issues, if I know about them.

The Khazad:

The Calabim:

The Doviello:

The Lanun:

The Ljosalfar:

The treasure city:

In particular, here's what I want feedback on:

• Am I fair with strategic resources?
  
• Is there enough commerce? Is it balanced?
  
• Did I boost the Doviello enough?
  
• Does everyone have enough of their theme terrain? Khazad hills, Ljo forests, Lanun seas...
  
• It still looks like a donut, despite some things I've tried to break the pattern. What else can I do to fix that, without damaging the balance?
  
• Are initial starting spots reasonably balanced?
  

And, if you want to look around in more detail, here's the save:
Save

[Ranamar]

Not that it's likely to matter because nobody's going to research it, but I feel like the dwarves should get easy access to blasting powder. It just feels poetic. I spotted two, as it is: one firmly in Calabim lands, and one between the Elves and the Lanun.

I'd like someone to provide counterarguments for the statement that the calabim land looks at least as nice as the Doviello land. (I suppose dyes are a better resource than cotton, for example.)

Finally, I think you want to spread the inland lakes out a bit (make them farther apart) in the Lannun land. Coves need 2 tiles between them, and cities can only build workboats if they can get one to a sea resource. Placing lakes which screw up cove dotmapping just feels like taunting them, even if they could be tactically interesting with the Overlords. I'm particularly looking at the lake 1E of a mana node and 1SW of a copper.

I'm sure I've missed lots of stuff.

[Azoth]

Wow, what a lush map. I don't think anyone will complain that it looks like a Donut. Now, for some feedback:

The Khazad: I would move the copper at their capital to the hill 1SW. There's a good chance they might settle on it otherwise. You could also move the Ivory to the plains 2N. Ivory is not normally found on hills (I think) and it wastes a potential Mine.

The Calabim: There's a lot of weirdness with coastal Ocean tiles between the Calabim and the Doviello. A simple fix, I'm sure.

The Lanun: The Lanun will probably settle their earliest cities west of the capital (saving the islands to the east for later), which likely leaves the Ljosalfar with the least expansion room of all the players. You might want to add one-tile bridges to connect some of those islands to the mainland, to ease the pressure; I'm not sure.

The Ljosalfar: The Ljos seem to have a lot of desert (15 tiles by my count!) between them and the central floodplains, while the others have barely any. Floodplains are also less desirable for elves, since they can't be bloomed. To compensate, I would convert most of the desert to plains, and cover it with forest.

Strategic Resources: As it stands, the Calabim are guaranteed Marble and Blasting Powder, and the only other sources I can see are between the Lanun and the Ljos. (There's also one Marble off on an island by the Lanun.) Everyone should have access to Blasting Powder just in case they ever get there. With the Marble, either everyone should have some (probably in a desert tile next to the floodplains) or no one should.

Commerce Resources: By my count, the Khazad have 3 Wines and 4 Forest Silks; the Calabim have 1 Incense, 6 Cotton, and 1 Wine; the Doviello have 3 Dye, 2 Jungle Dye, 1 Incense, 1 Gems, 2 Reagents, and 1 Cotton; the Lanun have 3 Forest Silk, 1 Cotton, 1 Wine, and 1 Pearls; and the Ljos have 2 Wines, 1 Incense, 1 Jungle Dye, and 1 Desert Reagents. On the whole, I think the Calabim have enough and the Doveillo can use all the extras they have; but I would give the other three players one or two more. In particular, I would make sure everyone has at least one Reagents and Incense available, for Archmages and High Priests.

Letum Frigus: I don't think the Calabim should get this: a vampiric Gibbeon Goeta with Ice III+Twicast+Feast = Game Over. Frankly, I don't know if anyone should have it, but I would probably give it to the Doviello tundramen, if I had to choose.

[Gaspar]

Quick hits:

Calabim have too much room. They're 16 tiles north of Doviello start, and 18 east of Khazad. Lanun are only 11 away from Doviello and 12 away from Ljosalfar who are then 11 from Khazad. If we're trying to balance Doviello. I'd aim to move Khazad maybe 4 west, Ljos 3 north, Lanun 2 east and Calabim 2 south. Not sure how important that is, but best Civ with most room is probably a bad idea.

Doviello are definitely going to settle 1 NW. That capital is actually too good. Not too good for Doviello, but actually so strong that they won't be able to use it. They'll have Horses, Copper, 3 Dyes, Corn, 2 Ancient Forests and 2 Flood Plains. Problem is, teching to use that stuff is going to slow down the rush, so I suppose its a choice. Agriculture -> Calendar -> Crafting -> Mining -> Bronze Working is going to basically put them at almost the end of the rush window though. I suppose its not up to you to play their game for them, though. I also think they're by far most likely to end up in the middle. Speaking of the middle... if its a barb city, they have to declare on the barbs to take it. Doesn't that basically mean Charadon has to throw away one of his traits to settle that spot? I don't know if you want them to make that choice.

I don't know if I like the middle. I don't really like the barb city, its going to get the kill teams out there faster as well, and I don't know that its the game these guys were looking for. If I were doing it, I might make a lot of the "inbetween" area Peaks, Jungle, Desert and then pre-place lots of dens/ruins. I also might split the big 3 into 3 potential city sites rather than one uber city. Maybe make it so theres a bunch of peaks blocking any site that settles more than one of them, and Guardians are placed next to those peaks. Then give the sites all some extra native food/commerce/production plus a mana node? I dunno, I don't think a site has to be overwhelmingly uber to be worth it, but I like the idea of having to go through a lot to get there. Take this all with a grain of salt, however.

I'd definitely move Letum Frigus to Doviello territory.

Wine happy for the Ljos kind of sucks. Crafting is not on any Elves early research path. Maybe trade the Dyes from the Doviello?

The Broken Sepulcher right next to Lanun is just taunting Bob's baser instincts.

Ljos get kinda screwed for Unique Features as well, maybe swap Standing Stones and Bradeline's Well?

Lanun need more hills. Plains hills even better.

All the criticism aside, really nice job making the map look more natural. If you really want to take some of the donut talk away, you could "blob" the land out near each civ a little bit, and maybe take away a piece of the top chunk between Khazad and Calabim?

[Selrahc]

I don't know if I like the middle. I don't really like the barb city, its going to get the kill teams out there faster as well, and I don't know that its the game these guys were looking for. If I were doing it, I might make a lot of the "inbetween" area Peaks, Jungle, Desert and then pre-place lots of dens/ruins.

I'd replace the barb city with a whole mess of goblin forts.

Also, just something silly. Maybe replace some or many of the desert floodplains with ice floodplain? Same base yield tiles, but they can be scorched into tundra. Little terrain bonuses for the Doviello.

a vampiric Gibbeon Goeta with Ice III+Twicast+Feast = Game Over

Twincast only doubles summoning spells.

[Ranamar]

Commerce Resources: By my count, the Khazad have 3 Wines and 4 Forest Silks; the Calabim have 1 Incense, 6 Cotton, and 1 Wine; the Doviello have 3 Dye, 2 Jungle Dye, 1 Incense, 1 Gems, 2 Reagents, and 1 Cotton; the Lanun have 3 Forest Silk, 1 Cotton, 1 Wine, and 1 Pearls; and the Ljos have 2 Wines, 1 Incense, 1 Jungle Dye, and 1 Desert Reagents. On the whole, I think the Calabim have enough and the Doveillo can use all the extras they have; but I would give the other three players one or two more. In particular, I would make sure everyone has at least one Reagents and Incense available, for Archmages and High Priests.

The Khazad should probably get gems, also, for similar reasons to everyone else needing incense: the Runekeeper (high priest of Kilmorph) requires gems instead of incense to upgrade and the temple similarly keys off of gems instead of incense. There's actually a real dearth of gems on this map, it seems. By that listing, I see 1, and the Doviello have it.

[Mardoc]

Not that it's likely to matter because nobody's going to research it, but I feel like the dwarves should get easy access to blasting powder. It just feels poetic. I spotted two, as it is: one firmly in Calabim lands, and one between the Elves and the Lanun.

Easy enough, and added.

I'd like someone to provide counterarguments for the statement that the calabim land looks at least as nice as the Doviello land. (I suppose dyes are a better resource than cotton, for example.)

Well, I shrunk the Calabim land, as Gaspar also suggested - is this enough of a change?

Finally, I think you want to spread the inland lakes out a bit (make them farther apart) in the Lannun land. Coves need 2 tiles between them, and cities can only build workboats if they can get one to a sea resource. Placing lakes which screw up cove dotmapping just feels like taunting them, even if they could be tactically interesting with the Overlords. I'm particularly looking at the lake 1E of a mana node and 1SW of a copper.

Fair enough, filled that one in. Lakes are very nice terrain for Lanun, even with Falamar and without being able to cove them, though - start at 3/0/2, up to 4/0/2 with a lighthouse, so I didn't want to remove too many of these.

Wow, what a lush map. I don't think anyone will complain that it looks like a Donut. Now, for some feedback:

The Khazad: I would move the copper at their capital to the hill 1SW. There's a good chance they might settle on it otherwise. You could also move the Ivory to the plains 2N. Ivory is not normally found on hills (I think) and it wastes a potential Mine.

I moved the site entirely - is it still reasonable?

The Calabim: There's a lot of weirdness with coastal Ocean tiles between the Calabim and the Doviello. A simple fix, I'm sure.

That was far from the only place - worldbuilder confused me, by most of the time fixing my ocean and making it coast when I put ocean next to land, but not all the time; I hadn't even realized there was a distinct coast tile instead of just an emergent property of ocean next to land. I think I caught it all, but if you find any more, please let me know.

The Lanun: The Lanun will probably settle their earliest cities west of the capital (saving the islands to the east for later), which likely leaves the Ljosalfar with the least expansion room of all the players. You might want to add one-tile bridges to connect some of those islands to the mainland, to ease the pressure; I'm not sure.

Did a bit of both this and moved the start positions per Gaspar. Let me know if it's better enough, please.

The Ljosalfar: The Ljos seem to have a lot of desert (15 tiles by my count!) between them and the central floodplains, while the others have barely any. Floodplains are also less desirable for elves, since they can't be bloomed. To compensate, I would convert most of the desert to plains, and cover it with forest.

Did this. It seems to help.

Strategic Resources: As it stands, the Calabim are guaranteed Marble and Blasting Powder, and the only other sources I can see are between the Lanun and the Ljos. (There's also one Marble off on an island by the Lanun.) Everyone should have access to Blasting Powder just in case they ever get there. With the Marble, either everyone should have some (probably in a desert tile next to the floodplains) or no one should.

Gave everyone Blasting powder and marble.

Commerce Resources: By my count, the Khazad have 3 Wines and 4 Forest Silks; the Calabim have 1 Incense, 6 Cotton, and 1 Wine; the Doviello have 3 Dye, 2 Jungle Dye, 1 Incense, 1 Gems, 2 Reagents, and 1 Cotton; the Lanun have 3 Forest Silk, 1 Cotton, 1 Wine, and 1 Pearls; and the Ljos have 2 Wines, 1 Incense, 1 Jungle Dye, and 1 Desert Reagents. On the whole, I think the Calabim have enough and the Doveillo can use all the extras they have; but I would give the other three players one or two more. In particular, I would make sure everyone has at least one Reagents and Incense available, for Archmages and High Priests.

Good catch; I'm sure everyone now has Reagents and Incense, and I added Gems to the westerners.

Letum Frigus: I don't think the Calabim should get this: a vampiric Gibbeon Goeta with Ice III+Twicast+Feast = Game Over. Frankly, I don't know if anyone should have it, but I would probably give it to the Doviello tundramen, if I had to choose.

Ok, they can have it. Seems reasonable.

Quick hits:

Calabim have too much room. They're 16 tiles north of Doviello start, and 18 east of Khazad. Lanun are only 11 away from Doviello and 12 away from Ljosalfar who are then 11 from Khazad. If we're trying to balance Doviello. I'd aim to move Khazad maybe 4 west, Ljos 3 north, Lanun 2 east and Calabim 2 south. Not sure how important that is, but best Civ with most room is probably a bad idea.

Shifted people around as recommended - please check if I messed anyone up by doing so.

Doviello are definitely going to settle 1 NW. That capital is actually too good. Not too good for Doviello, but actually so strong that they won't be able to use it. They'll have Horses, Copper, 3 Dyes, Corn, 2 Ancient Forests and 2 Flood Plains. Problem is, teching to use that stuff is going to slow down the rush, so I suppose its a choice. Agriculture -> Calendar -> Crafting -> Mining -> Bronze Working is going to basically put them at almost the end of the rush window though. I suppose its not up to you to play their game for them, though.

I can't quite tell if this is a criticism or not. Should I remove some of it? I see your point that it's an awful lot of good stuff

I also think they're by far most likely to end up in the middle. Speaking of the middle... if its a barb city, they have to declare on the barbs to take it. Doesn't that basically mean Charadon has to throw away one of his traits to settle that spot? I don't know if you want them to make that choice.

I don't know if I like the middle. I don't really like the barb city, its going to get the kill teams out there faster as well, and I don't know that its the game these guys were looking for. If I were doing it, I might make a lot of the "inbetween" area Peaks, Jungle, Desert and then pre-place lots of dens/ruins. I also might split the big 3 into 3 potential city sites rather than one uber city. Maybe make it so theres a bunch of peaks blocking any site that settles more than one of them, and Guardians are placed next to those peaks. Then give the sites all some extra native food/commerce/production plus a mana node? I dunno, I don't think a site has to be overwhelmingly uber to be worth it, but I like the idea of having to go through a lot to get there. Take this all with a grain of salt, however.

Good point. I'll spread out the big three, and take Selrahc's advice to just put in Goblin forts instead of a barb city.

The Broken Sepulcher right next to Lanun is just taunting Bob's baser instincts.

Mmm...good point. A tad too easy to manufacture Manes with free Death Mana. Swapped it with the Standing Stones.

Ljos get kinda screwed for Unique Features as well, maybe swap Standing Stones and Bradeline's Well?

Well - they're now closer to Broken Sepulcher and further from the Well. Still a problem?

Lanun need more hills. Plains hills even better.

Given.

All the criticism aside, really nice job making the map look more natural. If you really want to take some of the donut talk away, you could "blob" the land out near each civ a little bit, and maybe take away a piece of the top chunk between Khazad and Calabim?

I appreciate that - but the criticism is what I'm here for. Well, specifically, to hopefully get it all now, instead of down the road right before the players decide to stop the game...

I'd replace the barb city with a whole mess of goblin forts.

Also, just something silly. Maybe replace some or many of the desert floodplains with ice floodplain? Same base yield tiles, but they can be scorched into tundra. Little terrain bonuses for the Doviello.

That's a really fun idea. Yep, the river nearest them has now frozen over. Are you certain they can build farms on it - that doesn't require you be Illian, does it?

The Khazad should probably get gems, also, for similar reasons to everyone else needing incense: the Runekeeper (high priest of Kilmorph) requires gems instead of incense to upgrade and the temple similarly keys off of gems instead of incense. There's actually a real dearth of gems on this map, it seems. By that listing, I see 1, and the Doviello have it.

Thanks for noticing this - Gems became the commerce resource I used to balance commerce out a bit. Lots more exist now. Of course the Khazad might not stay Kilmorph long enough to need them, but they've got the option now.

Posting the new map, with the above taken into account, very shortly.

Any further criticisms? I'd much much much rather hear them now than inevitably in 3 months from the players.