Rebalancing Civ4: RtR Mod

[luddite]

Well, I guess that's a difference of mindset. I'd rather play one game very carefully all the way to the end (win or loss) than just blitz through each game to the point where I thought the winner was clear and start a new one. It's tempting to just say "oh well, player X will probably win from here, let's start afresh" when you hit the point where it looks hopeless, but I often find it rewarding to keep playing on regardless.

"playing carefully to the end" is exactly what I want to do. I just don't want to artificially extend the game past the end, by giving ridiculous bonuses to the players that are behind. And I would play carefully because I know that, with NTT, if you fall behind it's very hard to catch up, whereas with tech trading on being temporarily ahead or behind in techs barely even matters. I definitely respect people that will keep playing to the bitter end (I hate when people quit early), but I also want some sort of clear end to the game. If you're never going to give up, well, how long is too long? Would you keep playing a game that had been going on for 1000 turns over 10 years, where every time a leader emerged everyone else allied against him and dragged him down?

To add to my post above, I would say that I don't believe any amount of diplomatic skill can compensate for a complete lack of civ skill. The best negotiator in the world isn't going to win if he has no clue how to play the game competitively. It's not the case for the reverse though: a certain threshold of civ skill can certainly compensate for a lack of diplomatic skill.

So basically, civ skill still trumps diplomatic skill in all cases. But diplomatic skill can sometimes make things turn out a little more differently than expected, which allows for a bit more variety and unpredictability in games. Anyway, that's my opinion at least.

Of course the basic civ management skills are always important. Just... much less so, the more diplomacy you allow. For example, if you can research 20% faster than anyone else, that's impressive- but if you join a 3 team tech trading alliance, you triple your research speed, and the 20% edge doesn't look so good any more.

Even with no tech trading, diplomacy is often the deciding factor. The clearest example I suppose is pitboss 2, where Sullla/Speaker had a big lead in all demographics early on, but still almost died because they were diplomatically isolated. If that had been a tech-trading game, they would have had no chance, because their enemies would quickly outtech them. You might say it's good to have variety and unpredictability... but I think that mainly just makes people hate each other, and want to give up playing the game.

My opinion is colored from playing the board game Diplomacy, which is all about alliances and betrayals. It's a game that's famous for being fun at first, but quickly turning real life friends into enemies, and for never finishing because people get so angry at it. Usually the only way someone can win is if everyone else gets so mad at each other that they're willing to help the leader, just to get the game to end faster. That's not what I want civilization to be like!

Interesting. The thing is, it doesn't make much logical sense (why is my entire civ's mind wiped when I teach someone else how to do something I've learnt?), and I doubt whether it would be much fun to play. Could be interesting for a variant, though.

Yeah there's no real-life explanation for it, just an idea for a varient game rule that I had.

[RefSteel]

Well, if we want to do that, why not just make the others-known-bonus larger? Like 100%? Ask PBEM2 how that's gone, tbh.

Because that takes diplomacy out of the tech trading picture entirely; it's just a version of NTT that makes catch-up easier. If a civ with a tech can choose to provide a research bonus to one that lacks it, diplomacy gets involved once more, but need not overwhelm teching ability itself, depending on the value of the bonus that such a "tech trade" provides.

(I also envision this type of "tech trade" as a one-time bonus; you can't get it multiple times by agreement with multiple civs who all have the tech.)

[Krill]

But if you want to catch up on a tech leader then you will always provide the bonus. Having a larger known tech bonus apply to everyone stops dogpiles from easily deciding to take one person out of the game, and in fact help everyone keep up to the tech leader more IIUC.

[luddite]

Are you still planning on changing espionage? I was thinking about how weirdly binary the espionage system is. You either have enough points for something, or you don't. What's really strange to me is how you suddenly change from having zero knowledge of someone, and then 1 extra spy point gives you perfect, 100% accurate knowledge of the demographics. That's... strange. It also puts a little too much emphasis on making us analyze the demographics to figure out exactly what someone else is doing.

Is there a way to make it a little more gradual? Maybe add some error to the graphs, so they just give a ballpark range? Or make it so that one graph at a time comes in, instead of all at once.

Alternatively, if espionage is supposed to give so much information, then it would be nice to make it a little more user friendly. It could tell you directly how much of someone's power comes from units, instead of making you calculate that yourself.

[Cyneheard]

Are you still planning on changing espionage? I was thinking about how weirdly binary the espionage system is. You either have enough points for something, or you don't. What's really strange to me is how you suddenly change from having zero knowledge of someone, and then 1 extra spy point gives you perfect, 100% accurate knowledge of the demographics. That's... strange. It also puts a little too much emphasis on making us analyze the demographics to figure out exactly what someone else is doing.

Is there a way to make it a little more gradual? Maybe add some error to the graphs, so they just give a ballpark range? Or make it so that one graph at a time comes in, instead of all at once.

Agreed that it is a little strange, but I think as a game there's not much we can do. The Espionage system is complicated enough as it is, I don't see how making it more complicated really adds anything. If the system was being designed from the ground up, then each graph triggering separately might make some sense (adding error to the graph is asking for trouble in so many ways). But it's just too much work for realism that doesn't add much, if anything, to the strategy.

Me, I've found that it's not worth the time to analyze the demographics that closely, but that's just me.

[Cyneheard]

Ok, so while waiting on T-Hawk to put together the Espionage changes if he's had a chance, and seeing no consensus on what to do about corps or tech trading, here's version 1.0.

Link: RB Mod 1.0

Changes not made yet:
Graphics: Add a new promotion button for the "Spy" promotion, so that it doesn't look like the Sentry promotion, which is what I copied.
UUs/UBs: America (both), Russia (RI), Germany (both), Japan (Shale). I'll go over suggestions that we've had in a separate post.

New changes made since version 0.5:
Spies have been blinded: They now can only see the tile that they stand on, and only that tile, even when on hills. I could make it that Spies are no longer able to explore new terrain; would this be an improvement, make no difference whatsoever, or be confusing?

Corporations were removed. Three reasons:
1) PBEM1: They certainly defined the end-game too much there; most other games haven't gotten that far. PB1, don't recall how critical the corps were, but on a Huge map it takes a lot of resources to get anywhere.
2) It's a massive sunk cost that requires cooperation with other players...and that cooperation with other players can't be really be undone for the rest of the game.
3) Couldn't wait forever for a solution.

Tech trading, nothing's been done. Only playing NTT is passable, although suboptimal. Will need dll/python coding.

Because Corps were removed, the Economy civics were tweaked:
All corp-related bonuses were removed.
Mercantilism: Now gives +2gold/specialist.
Free Market: Currently unchanged.
State Property: Removed the 10% hammer bonus.
Environmentalism: So, this civic is awful unless you're playing an OCC. Krill suggested that I add +2 happy to the civic, which seemed reasonable enough...except that there's NO OPTION IN THE XML TO DO SO. Unless someone wants to a dll work-around to get it, I did the next-best thing: +2 happy for all cities that follow the State Religion. Obviously useless is you have FR, but it's at least a passable imitation.

Now, at this point, I think it's time to do some testing. If anyone wants to start a PBEM, I will not play in it, I'll be a global lurker.

Previous changelog:
Changelog, v0.5:
1) Tile Changes:
Watermills: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Rep Parts
Workshops: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Chemistry
Mines: +1h at Rep Parts

2) Civic Changes:
Vassalage now provides free support for military units as well (meaning Pacifism is cheaper), and is Medium Upkeep
Slavery: 30h for the 1st pop, 20h for the 2nd pop and subsequent pops. So, 30/50/70/90. On Quick speed, that's 20/33/46/60. *CHANGE from 0.3*
Serfdom: +75% Worker Speed, +1h for Watermills and Windmills

3) The Draft
Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 7 instead of size 5 (So size 9 to draft a rifle, size 8 to draft a musket).

4) War Weariness
Decays 10%/turn during Peacetime. *Change from 0.3/0.4: Wartime WW is now unchanged*

5) Espionage
Switch Civic and Switch Religion now require Future Tech

6) Wonder Changes
The Great Wall now provides Great Merchant points
Red Cross: 200h
West Point: 550h, +5XP. Now requires a lvl 5 unit (17XP/13XP for Cha)

7) Unit Changes:
War Elephants are now 7 str, +75% vs. Mounted units

8 ) UU and UB changes:
Terraces now give +1 culture
Praetorians have no Penalty
Cataphracts are 11 strength
Ballista Elephants are 8 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, +25% vs. WE, and still target Mounteds outside of a city (this buff was to avoid the Vulture Problem against the new WEs)
Vultures now get +30% vs. Melee.

9) Trait changes:
Financial: Require 3 commerce on land to receive the bonus commerce. Water tiles still only require 2 commerce to receive the bonus, though. Remember: A Golden Age cannot trigger Financial's bonus yield (as in the base game).
Expansive: No longer gets double-speed granaries, but gets double-speed grocers.
Creative: Only +1 free culture
Charismatic: +2 happiness, but no longer gets +1 happy from Monuments
Protective: Double-speed granaries
Imperialistic: Double-speed Custom Houses (At least this gives Imp something on water maps. For flavor, Custom Houses are very mercantile, which is what 17th century Imperialism was).

10) Miscellaneous:
Coastal Blockade now has a range of 1 square around the blockader, instead of 3 squares

[Cyneheard]

Suggestions made so far:

NAVY Seals:
Minuteman (Musketman replacement): Starts with GI and Woody I

Malls: (keeping the name)
Market UB, +35% gold
Market UB, +2 happy (would probably want to raise the cost a bit? Market's a solid building on its own, the Hammam less so)
Grocer UB, +1 food
etc. etc.

Research Institute: (keeping the name)
University replacement, gives +1 beaker to scientists, +2 beakers to Great Scientists
Some type of Market replacement: +1 happy from furs and +1 happy?

Panzers:
Cannon replacement?
Possibilities:
2-move cannon. (Different type of blitzing)
+1-2 str cannon.
Buff to collateral damage dealt/max units targeted.
Can receive defensive bonuses.
+50% versus Gunpowder, or +50% versus Mounted, or something like that.

Assembly Line:
IronWorks replacement, granting +100% hammers from Iron, instead of +50%?

Shale Plant:
+6XP Drydocks. 3-promo navies aren't just for Charismatic players anymore. Would be very situational, but that extra promo could be very valuable.

The tech trading discussion side-tracked this earlier.

[luddite]

Interesting. Looks like good changes. I think you made the right decision to remove corporations rather than try and come up with a complicated change to balance them.

Regarding environmentalism- I actually think it's OK as it is. Especially if you're removing corporations, which are it's only penalty. The health is really nice to balance the effects of assembly line and biology. It would be nice to have it earlier in the tech tree though, so we didn't have to research medicine to get it. Maybe make it available with biology or scientific method?

[T-hawk]

Ok, so while waiting on T-Hawk to put together the Espionage changes if he's had a chance, and seeing no consensus on what to do about corps or tech trading, here's version 1.0.

I'll see if I can find time this week, though will be away this upcoming weekend.

Mercantilism: Now gives +2gold/specialist.
Free Market: Currently unchanged.

Free Market loses a bonus (corp cost) so Mercantilism gains one?

Environmentalism: So, this civic is awful unless you're playing an OCC. Krill suggested that I add +2 happy to the civic, which seemed reasonable enough...except that there's NO OPTION IN THE XML TO DO SO. Unless someone wants to a dll work-around to get it, I did the next-best thing: +2 happy for all cities that follow the State Religion. Obviously useless is you have FR, but it's at least a passable imitation.

How about +2 happy with granary, like Nationhood with barracks? It's at least almost on flavor too. Or can the XML do +2 happy in 99 largest cities like Representation?

Malls: (keeping the name)
Market UB, +35% gold

That, simpler is better.

Research Institute: (keeping the name)
University replacement, gives +1 beaker to scientists, +2 beakers to Great Scientists

Why not simply +1 free scientist? Comparable to the French Salon, and more in line with unmodded.

Shale Plant:
+6XP Drydocks. 3-promo navies aren't just for Charismatic players anymore. Would be very situational, but that extra promo could be very valuable.

That came out of left field. What does shale have to do with navy? How about sticking to the original functionality, just move it forward in time to something appropriate on flavor. +10% hammers on a customs house or levee or drydock or jail?

[zakalwe]

Replacing the jail with a labor camp that also adds a hammer bonus seems like a nice bit of flavor.