Uncommonly Good: A Story of Elves

[NobleHelium]

AH is a good idea if you're going to get hunters out before Priesthood is available. You need it for Subdue Animal. If not then not very useful I don't think.

[Man Behind the Mask]

I’ve got relatively little experience of this C&D business, as anybody lurking multiple threads has probably worked out by now. However, the turns have been sufficiently uneventful that all we’ve got left is speculation about the outside world. We started the process of creating a shared recording spreadsheet yesterday, so it must be time for a new series.



While the infrastructure is being put in place to support a more comprehensive C&D effort, I’ll just pick out the highlights from the latest demographics for us all to chew over.

Kyan’s 12 point score increase does not look like more population. Rival Best population did not increase from the 111K (equivalent to one pop 5 and one pop 3 city) the previous turn. It can’t be land points for a very early second city as we were still top of the land area in the demos at Turn 27. He’s already had third ring land points; he got less than we did, so must have some water tiles – maybe he’s neighbour to the Sheaim along the south coast? It’s also only two turns since the Bals last got a tech. So I’ve come up with answers for what it’s not, but failed to establish any opinion on what those 12 points could be Not a promising start to this C&D masterclass! Meeting Kyan soon to get his graphs will actually be huge in putting together some of the missing pieces.

The thing that has been most confusing for me is the rival worst population. However, this finally increased to 22k last turn, for cities at size 3 and 1. Since we also dropped from 4th to 5th in the land area stakes, it looks like only us and Nicolae are missing a second city. It is therefore possible that Brian did get two techs in a row and plant a city last turn.

There was no increase in the max soldier points, but there was a 1k rise at the opposite end, at a time when it looks like only the Elohim and Hippus have increased in population. That leads to the bad news – if I had to stick my neck out, I’d say that the super-army belonged to the Balseraphs or Grigori. Sadly my money would be on the former, since there was no change in the 42k army Turns 20 to 27, and the clowns look like they only gained a tech in that period, so no pop-related change in the soldier-count. Again, Kyan’s graphs would be massive for filling in these blanks.

**

I’ve updated the spreadsheet with all the scores, and added a second sheet copied across from mine to show what I’d attributed. We know this is wrong! I’ll get to the demos at some point if nobody beats me to it. Missing from the thread are shots for Turns 15-16, 23-26, 28-30, 32-35, 37-38 (all inclusive).

[Mardoc]

It can’t be land points for a very early second city as we were still top of the land area in the demos at Turn 27. He’s already had third ring land points; he got less than we did, so must have some water tiles – maybe he’s neighbour to the Sheaim along the south coast?

Hang on - if he was missing some third ring land, maybe he could still settle a city without increasing past us?

Also, some inputs to help - for this game, a Pop point is worth 5.537 points, a land square 1.5798, a Tech 11.1732, and a wonder 17.24. I believe it's calculated by each category - for example: all the population is summed, multiplied by 5.537 (well, technically by 5000/903), the result floored, and that result is added to our overall score. Since both population and land are very far from being integers, they're going to help throw us off.

Finally, something that would help with accuracy, but is a bit too much for me right now - it's possible to extract info directly from the graphs we have, if you overlay an evenly spaced grid for turns/height. That would give us Nicolae's info for certain, which would help with understanding averages and etc.

I’ve updated the spreadsheet with all the scores, and added a second sheet copied across from mine to show what I’d attributed. We know this is wrong! I’ll get to the demos at some point if nobody beats me to it. Missing from the thread are shots for Turns 15-16, 23-26, 28-30, 32-35, 37-38 (all inclusive).

Alright, I'll focus on the missing from thread turns, for now.

This would indicate the Balseraphs are closer than I would care for them to be. Wonder how Kyan got a scout around?

I think you're probably right, there must be a land connection to our south. If it's Kyan with the ridiculous military score, and he's therefore exploring with lizardmen, he could be the first to contact everyone - they'd be much much less likely to die to random encounters.

[Man Behind the Mask]

Also, some inputs to help - for this game, a Pop point is worth 5.537 points, a land square 1.5798, a Tech 11.1732, and a wonder 17.24. I believe it's calculated by each category - for example: all the population is summed, multiplied by 5.537 (well, technically by 5000/903), the result floored, and that result is added to our overall score. Since both population and land are very far from being integers, they're going to help throw us off..

Brilliant, Mardoc! I had not factored in the rounding.

Your sixth tech will get you 12 points, so everything would fit again for the Balseraphs (they’re the only civ with 5 researched plus their starting tech). That does mean they picked up a tech in only two turns, so they’re probably top of the GNP demo, as I thought earlier with their culture helping a little.

I think you're probably right, there must be a land connection to our south. If it's Kyan with the ridiculous military score, and he's therefore exploring with lizardmen, he could be the first to contact everyone - they'd be much much less likely to die to random encounters.

Based on Nicolae’s “disc” comment earlier, I think it’s highly likely there is some kind of land bridge to the south-west. That would mean that the skeleton barrow we dodged away from was guarding a chokepoint in the same way as the one the Brawler just heroically cleared – maybe a deliberate plan by the mapmaker?

Some thoughts on the political ramifications…. If the Balseraphs are close by and have a big military, they may be happy to take out the Sheaim before the latter get to zombies. Similarly, they present a fairly tempting target if we want to point Nicolae in a different direction – they won’t be able to muster an emergency defence force in the same way we can. I’m not sure if the Clowns can be top in GNP AND be supporting the big army.

[Mardoc]

Some thoughts on the political ramifications…. If the Balseraphs are close by and have a big military, they may be happy to take out the Sheaim before the latter get to zombies. Similarly, they present a fairly tempting target if we want to point Nicolae in a different direction – they won’t be able to muster an emergency defence force in the same way we can. I’m not sure if the Clowns can be top in GNP AND be supporting the big army.

Oooh, I like it (fomenting discord). We did manage to get that T100 NAP extorted, but Nicolae needn't wait that long to have a scary army, and probably doesn't want them sitting around bored. Similarly, our best time to fight is not exactly at T100; ideally we'd wait another 20ish turns or more.

The trick, of course, is how to phrase 'let's you and him fight' in such a way that actually works rather than convincing both of them we're just in it for ourselves. We might have to promise Kyan to come in on his side. Although, the way you phrase it might work. ('he's vulnerable, we're not' or 'look how scary he will be to people without Treants and Tigers')

Also, on your last point - do keep in mind that if they got lucky with events to get their military might, it's not necessarily a lot of units, just valuable ones. 63000 is something like 6 lizards + city + 2 warriors, which could well be affordable.

[Gaspar]

Great stuff as always, lads. And not just because I marked out briefly for the Papa Shango reference.

AH is a good idea if you're going to get hunters out before Priesthood is available. You need it for Subdue Animal. If not then not very useful I don't think.

I think Hunting is almost definitely our next tech. Given we're forgoing the metal line at least for a while, we need a higher strength unit in the field soon. I also think I'd like to do AH after Hunting, for Subdue Animal, I just have to make sure we can afford to do that and still hit Priesthood in time. Recruiting a few spiders and bears (oh my) will do a lot for any future war effort, if only to steal the odd worker and have dancing bears for quicker culture in captured cities. (We are cultural, so this is less a concern.)

Brilliant, Mardoc! I had not factored in the rounding.

Your sixth tech will get you 12 points, so everything would fit again for the Balseraphs (they’re the only civ with 5 researched plus their starting tech). That does mean they picked up a tech in only two turns, so they’re probably top of the GNP demo, as I thought earlier with their culture helping a little.


Based on Nicolae’s “disc” comment earlier, I think it’s highly likely there is some kind of land bridge to the south-west. That would mean that the skeleton barrow we dodged away from was guarding a chokepoint in the same way as the one the Brawler just heroically cleared – maybe a deliberate plan by the mapmaker?

Some thoughts on the political ramifications…. If the Balseraphs are close by and have a big military, they may be happy to take out the Sheaim before the latter get to zombies. Similarly, they present a fairly tempting target if we want to point Nicolae in a different direction – they won’t be able to muster an emergency defence force in the same way we can. I’m not sure if the Clowns can be top in GNP AND be supporting the big army.

First off, excellent to see the C&D effort get untracked. I think I'll try and fill in some of the missing demos tonight, and in the future, I'll snap a picture and place in the same dropbox folder as the other turn visuals every turn, even if I don't necessarily post it in thread. If I really get on the ball, I'll fill in the spreadsheet every turn. This is unlikely.

As far as the map, and its political ramifications, see below.

Oooh, I like it (fomenting discord). We did manage to get that T100 NAP extorted, but Nicolae needn't wait that long to have a scary army, and probably doesn't want them sitting around bored. Similarly, our best time to fight is not exactly at T100; ideally we'd wait another 20ish turns or more.

The trick, of course, is how to phrase 'let's you and him fight' in such a way that actually works rather than convincing both of them we're just in it for ourselves. We might have to promise Kyan to come in on his side. Although, the way you phrase it might work. ('he's vulnerable, we're not' or 'look how scary he will be to people without Treants and Tigers')

Also, on your last point - do keep in mind that if they got lucky with events to get their military might, it's not necessarily a lot of units, just valuable ones. 63000 is something like 6 lizards + city + 2 warriors, which could well be affordable.

I think there's a lot of possibilities re: where Kyan is, what the map looks like, and how Kyan got to Nicolae. First and foremost, we saw the pickle Nicolae was in when we were near him, and its probably a safe bet he didn't get to explore his west very much. In that case, he really has no idea what the map looks like. This theory also makes it more understandable why Nicolae has seemed so interested in northern expansion. If he is indeed connected to Kyan by land, it would make sense that the land to his west would probably be better than the jungled waste in between our two civilizations. So I'm not ruling out anything. Also, if Kyan got lizards from a lair and had an AH resource to improve close to home, it is entirely possible that he captured an animal and used that to make contact - a griffon, for example, could traverse water tiles. I'm not saying I think that's likely, but I think its enough pause that we can't entirely rule out no land connection in the south. If that is the case, Nicolae really got screwed by the map, though. I don't think ErebusContinent likes Sheaim, tbh.

As far as making the diplo dance work with Kyan, that's unlikely. While I've improved quite a bit at diplomacy from my mistakes in PBEM12, Kyan is a silver-tongued master. As such, I don't really believe anything he ever says. This pretty much makes it impossible to work with him, as I don't actually trust him to keep to any agreement he might make. I'm willing to engage in surface diplomacy with him to keep the peace, so to speak, I would absolutely never ally with him under any circumstance - he just can't be trusted. That Krill is his dedlurker just makes that all the more obvious - Krill also can't be trusted.

I would bet a good bit this game comes down to us and the Clowns anyway, so if Kyan is meeting everyone before us, we have problems. I wouldn't in the least be surprised if he's already stirring Nicolae's pot with regards to us.

[Gaspar]

Turn is in, fairly mundane.

Score increases: Nicolae, 11 (tech)

Brawler started back towards home, while LLP continued his forest dance and spied the bear had moved closer. Settler completes at EOT. Currently superfluous farm completed at the cap, Worker will head to the new city site with the Settler. Capital will train at least a pair of workers before moving on to other projects, other projects loosely defined as probably the next settler. No sign of a Balseraph scout/lizardman/warrior/griffon/airship/Auric Ascended, so no news on that front.



And demos:



I suppose I should send a shout to Nicolae, but I have little inspiration on that front.

[NobleHelium]

I really want to say the Elohim are being besieged by mister 64k soldier points and have turned off all tech, but that doesn't make sense. They're the Elohim for crying out loud.

[Mardoc]

@fire&ice - have you seen Commodore's signature? I couldn't stop laughing for five, ten minutes!

@ Gaspar - What about dragons? Did you see a Balseraph dragon?

I'm very glad the settler finished finally, that will be one more thing to talk about. Plus, well, the new city ought to decisively pick our demos back off the floor; given that no one has a size 6 city yet except us, I'm sure no one will have a size 8 one either. Of course, we won't want to work the Remnants much, until either urgent need or growth, since we don't want to lose the

And...might as well remind you on this one.

Speaking of which, coming up we have to come up with a name for the second city (definitely taking suggestions there), come up with a more specific plan for the next 20 turns or so, and determine once and for all what approach we're going to take to the Sheaim wars. So lots to talk about. I also have a thematic post mostly done introducing the Ljosalfar Elder Council to the world. I'm putting all this stuff out there mostly for the purposes of forcing me to actually follow through on all of it.

If I haven't said so lately, I really and truly appreciate the level of dedication you all have had to the game - beyond the actual help in playing, its made the game a lot more fun. So thanks!

I'm afraid I don't know much famous stoner references, so I can't really help on city names (unless you're willing to go with basalt, quartz, something like that? Didn't think so).

But we are down to 4 turns to Education and the need for at least that much of a plan. I'm starting to think we may want to go for Calendar, both for the cotton as well as for Agrarianism, to get the Remnants site started a little faster. We won't want it permanently, of course, but with only cows and farms, we're going to need one or the other to have that city contribute anything in the near future. And especially if we want it to work the Remnants before we make it to WoTF.

[fire&ice]

@fire&ice - have you seen Commodore's signature? I couldn't stop laughing for five, ten minutes!

no

*shuffles off to look up*

read signature . . .








I don't get it.