[SPOILER] Darius of Ottomans - Vets - Krill

[Krill]

Henge built next turn, eot t36, if it is not built next turn before I get the save. It also looks like I will get the third city for the wheat and the pigs on t38. Will have an axe and warrior for defence, and 2 workers there to hook everything up/chop,that should severely curtail sunrises'ability to plant to his NW I do need to beeline Engineering in this game, for the road bonus and pikes...

Considering building Pyramids relatively soon as well so I don't have to tech to Monarchy...but I need to get my cap to size 7 asap (with granary) so it can start on the cottages and still build stuff fast. Second city just had a border pop due to religion spread, and grows to size 3 next turn with furs hooked and one wheat irrigated. Considering if/when I want to slave out another worker, and I'm prety sure I want a granary in the city (2 irrigated wheat, grass fur and a few cottages = nice slave city).

[Sullla]

Moving onto the UB, yeah, no where near first tier, but it has it's niche. It isn't the terrace, it isn't the Obelisk, two UB that give you a whole new game to play, but it shines in the medieval era. Settle aggressively, and stack your claim to the land. Get the theatre in a front city, and chop out/slave a monastery after spreading religion. That would give you 6 base culture, or 7.5 adjusted. That gives you a significant turn advantage to popping your borders and making your front city safer, forcing your would be attacker to slave out an army faster, and hurting themselves in the process, or making them leave you alone with your extra land if they can't make the time scale. It gives you that tactical, rather than strategic edge. Unless you are going to go for a culture victory...

Let me get this straight: so if I invest 110 shields into a theatre and monastery, I will get a whole 1.5 extra culture per turn with China over a normal civ? Wow, sign me up! Puts that Incan terrace to shame.

[Krill]

Let me get this straight: so if I invest 110 shields into a theatre and monastery, I will get a whole 1.5 extra culture per turn with China over a normal civ? Wow, sign me up! Puts that Incan terrace to shame.

Did you actually read what I wrote Sullla? I specifically stated it isn't as good as the terrace, which is the most uber UB in the game.

So much for your academic credentials of critical analysis

And you've obviously never dumped 6 workers onto a single front city and chopped out forests constantly once it got founded. In 10 turns you can easily get Pavilion/Monastery/Monument/religion/Library, for a base 9 cpt. Add in a couple of artists if you can grow the city quickly...but on quick, you only need 50 culture to get to 40% and one moving the city becomes impossible. Up until you get 8 cpt in the city, the Terrace is better...but I'd argue it is better before then because you get the granary benefits as well.

[Sullla]

Yeah, I did read what you wrote. My point is that if you're going to invest a lot of shields/chops into cultural buildings, the pavillion is proving a very marginal benefit, at best. Your pavillion + monastery + monument + religion + library kicks out a lot of culture... but you'd also be getting a lot of culture from a normal theatre in that situation. I think it's a difference of 9 culture/turn versus 11/turn. Nice and everything, but one of the better unique buildings? Really doesn't feel like it to me. Especially since you can just build a non-unique theatre and force 2 Artist specialists for 3 + 4 + 4 = 11 culture/turn. That generally works better than building 180 shields worth of infrastructure (and requiring a religion spread too).

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread any further, so I'll stop here.

[Krill]

Yeah, I did read what you wrote. My point is that if you're going to invest a lot of shields/chops into cultural buildings, the pavillion is proving a very marginal benefit, at best. Your pavillion + monastery + monument + religion + library kicks out a lot of culture... but you'd also be getting a lot of culture from a normal theatre in that situation. I think it's a difference of 9 culture/turn versus 11/turn. Nice and everything, but one of the better unique buildings? Really doesn't feel like it to me. Especially since you can just build a non-unique theatre and force 2 Artist specialists for 3 + 4 + 4 = 11 culture/turn. That generally works better than building 180 shields worth of infrastructure (and requiring a religion spread too).

Anyway, I don't want to hijack your thread any further, so I'll stop here.

Can't work 2 artist specs if the city is size 1. You could work 1 artist spec and stop growth, but you can also do that with the Pavilion. that gives you 13*1.25=16.25 cpt with everything in, or just an adjusted 8.75 cpt, which could lead to a feasible second border pop in 7 turns after planting, where as a theatre would take 8 turns. And on quick speed, each turn is worth more, and that is the whole point of the Pavilion: speed.

And this isn't really off topic, so I don;t mind continuing the discussion when I get back from work.

[Selrahc]

And this isn't really off topic, so I don;t mind continuing the discussion when I get back from work.

Well if you don't mind...

It sounds like the benefit from the Pavillion is incredibly narrow. It will only ever be useful in disputed border regions. The lack of a creative trait means it also won't be building all that quickly. Now I might be wrong... but surely an always war game isn't going to be hugely influenced by cultural border skirmishes?

The free happiness from the Hamman is going to be good in a lot of situations, even with hereditary rule. At worst it gives you a higher happy cap to whip away.



I can kind of see why you think you got shafted on the leader. Organized on noble is a bit of a weak trait. But the benefits of China over Ottomans seems much less apparent.

[Krill]

Well if you don't mind...

It sounds like the benefit from the Pavillion is incredibly narrow. It will only ever be useful in disputed border regions. The lack of a creative trait means it also won't be building all that quickly. Now I might be wrong... but surely an always war game isn't going to be hugely influenced by cultural border skirmishes?

The free happiness from the Hamman is going to be good in a lot of situations, even with hereditary rule. At worst it gives you a higher happy cap to whip away.



I can kind of see why you think you got shafted on the leader. Organized on noble is a bit of a weak trait. But the benefits of China over Ottomans seems much less apparent.

As I said before, you have to consider three things: starting techs, UB, and UU. I think Mining/Agri is better than Wheel/Agri, simply because it places you closer to BW, and you don't need the Wheel that early in the game, so +1 to China. UB, Hammam is better, strategically, but still unnecessary compared to 2 HR archers, as you are effectively paying 35 hammers for 2 health, and on this map, I have 3 grain, 4 animal, and at least 2 seafood within reach. I also have significant happy res. I was only illustrating how the Pavilion is not useless, and how it can be leveraged into an advantage, not claiming that it was the uber UB (which everyone seems to have overlooked).

And the UU, the Jan isn't particularly great, requiring a strict military beeline to make use of it offensively (like the CK), when you probably should be heading for Lib/PP/Constitution (compare to getting CoL/CS, which you can quite easily do without IMO). Useful? Perhaps if you are getting invaded by cuirs.

[Krill]

Henge is mine

[Square Leg]

Is there a game you don't build henge?

[Krill]

Henge is absurdly fun if you get stone IMO I'm lazy, and it letsme focus on the good stuff, like out growing people.