[SPOILERS] Bismark of Sumeria (luddite + Atlas1998)

[luddite]

To be honest it's long and rambles all over the place, so I don't think it would really interest anyone. We argued for a long time about who should build stonehenge. We talked a bit about the other players. We're both very confused by why sunrise and regorrar moved on the first turn, if they have an identical start to ours. And we both think that this map will be tricky, with low food and few forests. Neither of us has seen any really good city sites so far.

Anyway, onto Mysticism - hmm, well Mysticism still leads to the Oracle, right? We're pretty much in the same position I think: both of us can potentially get Stonehenge at turn 27 if we really go full-on. In that case it's a dice roll who gets the wonder I think, which doesn't benefit either of us.
[1/29/2011 10:19:36 AM] luddite: haha you were teching mysticism too?
[1/29/2011 10:19:53 AM] evilparkin: Being Charismatic + having Obelisks, Stonehenge obviously gives us more to gain than it would for you
[1/29/2011 10:20:14 AM] evilparkin: Obviously we're both pretty keen on the wonder
[1/29/2011 10:20:23 AM] evilparkin: Free border pops for new cities are indeed quite nice
[1/29/2011 10:20:39 AM] luddite: yeah, and on this map teching bronze working will take forever
[1/29/2011 10:20:47 AM] evilparkin: But the whole +1 happy and +2 priest slot thing makes it especially attractive for me
[1/29/2011 10:20:53 AM] evilparkin: I know, it's a very odd setup
[1/29/2011 10:21:00 AM] luddite: aqh yes, you're egypt too i forgot about that part
[1/29/2011 10:21:08 AM] evilparkin: Yeah
[1/29/2011 10:21:51 AM] evilparkin: Hence the dilemma... Oracle gives the same benefit either way for either of us, but Stonehenge gives me a considerable leg up relative to anyone else who could build it.
[1/29/2011 10:22:18 AM] evilparkin: I did a few calculations, and it seems BW won't come until turn 50-ish with everything else that needs to come first.
[1/29/2011 10:22:35 AM] evilparkin: Also noticing this map seems to be rather food-poor, at least in my area. Have you noticed anything like that?
[1/29/2011 10:22:50 AM] luddite: Yeah that's exactly what I thought too
[1/29/2011 10:22:55 AM] evilparkin: Krill certainly seems to have made this a tricky one
[1/29/2011 10:23:12 AM] luddite: with low food, and not many trees, I won't have a good way to pop borders for a while
[1/29/2011 10:23:43 AM] evilparkin: Yeah. But on the other hand, 7/10 rivals will be in identical positions...
[1/29/2011 10:24:21 AM] evilparkin: Besides, depending on how you work things, the second city won't come until turn 30-40 anyway. So not that much ahead of forest chops, depending on your tech queue.
[1/29/2011 10:24:39 AM] evilparkin: (Plako and SleepingMoogle are the only Creative ones, as I recall)
[1/29/2011 10:25:00 AM] luddite: yeah so I assumed SleepingMoogle wouldn't be getting Stonehenge
[1/29/2011 10:25:06 AM] evilparkin: Yeah, of course
[1/29/2011 10:25:07 AM] luddite: Ioan might be, no way of kinowing
[1/29/2011 10:25:21 AM] evilparkin: So pretty much Mackoti, or maybe Adlain at a long shot (started with Mysticism)
[1/29/2011 10:25:33 AM] luddite: But i really thought that getting mysticism second would be enough to win it lol
[1/29/2011 10:25:37 AM] evilparkin: I think everyone's going to have trouble popping borders early in this game, so it'll kind of balance out that way
[1/29/2011 10:25:48 AM] evilparkin: Heh, unfortunately at least one other person had the same idea... :D
[1/29/2011 10:26:15 AM] evilparkin: Have you ever played with either Mackoti/Ioan or Adlain before?
[1/29/2011 10:26:24 AM] luddite: yeah i'm in a game with Adlain right now
[1/29/2011 10:26:30 AM] evilparkin: Any guesses as to how inclined they are towards Stonehenge?
[1/29/2011 10:26:48 AM] luddite: Although, i haven't actually encountered him in-game yet... my impression is that they're both fairly inexperienced at civ
[1/29/2011 10:26:50 AM] evilparkin: I've played with Mackoti before (ages ago), and I don't think he valued it that highly. Of course could change with what he sees on this map though.
[1/29/2011 10:27:13 AM] evilparkin: Mackoti's a pretty aggressive player. Don't underestimate him, he's pretty good.
[1/29/2011 10:27:34 AM] evilparkin: I get the feeling Adlain's a bit inexperienced though, although I wouldn't know for sure
[1/29/2011 10:28:01 AM] evilparkin: Just the whole picking only 1 trait and then Arabia (?!?!) to go with it... doesn't seem to make much sense. Maybe I'm completely wrong though.
[1/29/2011 10:28:14 AM] luddite: Yeah I don't know what's up with that
[1/29/2011 10:28:20 AM] luddite: well anyway, I tell you what
[1/29/2011 10:28:30 AM] luddite: I'm willing to switch techs and let you have stonehenge
[1/29/2011 10:28:34 AM] evilparkin: Basing opinions entirely on civ/leader picks probably isn't that good a measure though :D
[1/29/2011 10:28:59 AM] evilparkin: Really? That's very kind of you.

[luddite]

I've been pondering a lot about what Plako could be doing. Here are my thoughts:

fact: Plako researched hunting and fishing first. Nothing else could explain why his score increased on turns 7 and 14 while his population stayed at 1.

fact: Plako is imperialistic/creative, and his initial techs are agriculture/mining.

Assumption: All starts are identical

So why did he research fishing first? I think he's using his imperialistic trait to get a very fast settler. Presumably after a worker though, otherwise hunting would be pointless. If he found a city site with a seafood resource, he'd need to research fishing quickly to finish it before the city is founded. Then he could start on bronze working- getting bronze working before fishing would delay the work boat in the new city. Or sailing, if he really really wants the great lighthouse.

I think it's a good bet that there's at least one good seafood resource near me, which could make for a good city site. I'm also imagining a mad 6-way race for the Great Lighthouse, with 4 industrious civs, one civ with a coastal capital, and one civ beelining sailing. That would be quite interesting.

[luddite]

I'm really stumped on where to go from here. Here's what my scout uncovered in the north:


Now, that would be a great location to build the great lighthouse. But can I really get it before anyone else does?

I did some sim tests. The fastest I that can get it, I think, is turn 61 (edit- actually, i can get it on turn 58 with some fancy micro). Research is the real bottleneck- basically, I get it 2 turns after bronze working finishes, regardless of what else I do. 30 hammers/forest really packs a punch.

Expansive doesn't really help me much (although it did allow me to grow to size 2 this turn, before anyone else ). The dutch are Ind/ORG, so they save a lot on the lighthouse. And they start with fishing tech. If they decide to go for it too, could I really beat them?

[luddite]

Right. I've made my decision. I don't think I have a good enough chance to get the Great Lighthouse. Especially if the Dutch decide to beeline it, there's no way I can beat them after I wasted 4 turns of research on mysticism. Plako too- he started with mining, and he's already researched fishing, and he's IMP for a fast settler, so he's only 3 techs away from it basically (sailing, masonry, BW) while i'm still 5 techs away). And I'd need to take a rather awkward development path through fishing, sailing and masonry, which would really hurt me if I failed.

I'd still like to build a wonder though. Mainly because on a high-hammer low-food map like this, they offer a nice way of converting hammers into commerce.

The oracle seems like a much better bet. Being expansive, and having some turns in mysticism will help me with that. Then can take metal casting, giving me half-price forges and hopefully land the collossus too. Some luxuries to go with the forges would be nice, but if we don't have any then it will at least put me close to monarchy.

Besides, a side effect of the Great Lighthouse is that you make yourself a really tempting target, whereas the oracle doesn't offer anything to people who conquer it.

[luddite]

I've discovered gold down in the southeast. That's probably too far away for me to settle, but I'd love to get a source of gold if possible. Both for commerce, and for happiness with forges.

I've also discovered this in the northwest corner:

Kind of a crappy city site, but it's worth considering if I really need happiness.

4 other civs grew this turn. Plako did not, which means he's almost certainly going for a fast settler.

[luddite]

Here's what I'm thinking of right now for city locations:

This map has very few food resources (I haven't seen any 6 food tile yet), so I need to make the most of what I can get. That, combined with the lack of luxuries means fairly small cities. I should plan on packing them close together.

There's also very few river grassland tiles. I want to grab as many of those as I can. I should avoid settling on top of them. I don't think I'll be able to have any pure cottage cities outside of the capital- they'll all be hybrid cottage + production.

Long term, I'd like to build the colossus, and work as many coastal tiles as possible. That will be my best bet to increase commerce. Windmills will also be useful on this map.

If I get an early forge, I might be able to use a great engineer to rush the pyramids. Normally I don't like the pyramids, but it makes sense in this case. Most cities won't be able to grow big enough to need the hereditary rule happiness, and a specialist with representation is better than 2 plains cottages. Particularly strong with mercantilism.

For extra fun, combine the pyramids with a forge engineer to rush the Great Library that might be pushing it, though.

ANYWAY, after all that rambling, I need to figure out a dotmap that will be strong in the short term. When my happy cap is 4- or 3 after whipping! I want cities that can work two cottages and then regrow onto mines. Non-resource farms kinda suck, so I'd like to avoid them as much as possible.



I know that city 2 has no food resource, which is a big no no. I'm hoping that it has one which I haven't revealed yet.

I'll build/chop the oracle in city 1, and then (maybe) the colossus in city 2 and the pyramids in the capital. Cities 1 and 2 can both work two riverside cottages immediately, and regrow on riverside hills. Later they can work the coast, too. City 3 can work lake tiles, or help the capital work cottages in its land. More importantly, it leads to that nice corn site in the east, where I'd like to build city 4.

This plan will fill up the river with cottages ASAP, and works well with my wonder plan. I can pack in more cities later, with windmills. If city 1 builds the oracle, it will quickly claim the fur, giving my happy cap a much needed boost. It also gives me a nice defensive formation if it comes to early warfare- all on hills, centered around the capital.

[luddite]

Does anyone have any data on when the Oracle and Great Library have been built in previous games? I found that the oracle was built on turn 70 in PB2, and about turn 60 in PB1. The Great Library was built in turn 139 in PB2, and I can't find any other dates for it.

edit: I see that it went in turn 30 (!) in PBEM 12, but that's with terrific starting land on quick speed, and an expansive india. It went in turn 40 (quick speed) in PBEM 10, which seems like a more reasonable comparison. That would be about turn 60 on standard speed.

[Krill]

PB3 t62
PBEM2, t38 on quick speed (as IND with archi map and slaving Oracle), so t55-ish normal for MC.
CFC MTDG, t55 for MC (with 1 turn Oracle build)

can't really remember the rest.

[luddite]

Thanks Krill. That seems in line with what I can do.

[luddite]

I've made a proposal to Lord Parkin. Here's the email I sent:

Dear Lord Parkin,

Now that I've explored the map a little more, I wanted to you about how we're going to settle it in the future. It looks as though I have a solid sea border to my west, and I assume that you have the same on your east. Both of us have an inland sea below us.

To me, the fairest way to divide up the terrain seems to be that we'll each settle around our own sea. Unfortunately, that does make the strip of land in the middle a bit awkward. No reason that we can't divide that in half also, but we need to be careful to do so in a way that won't provoke any future conflicts. If we can set up a secure border with each other, it will make it much easier for us to expand southward and claim more territory from the other civs down there.

My warrior has discovered a rather nice potential city cite down in the south. It has gold, and two silk resources. And you've already seen the spot we talked about earlier with corn, whale, and cows. What I'd like to propose is that I should settle near the corn (west of it, which won't claim the cows) and you settle down south to claim the gold. Then, after we've both hooked up the resources, I trade you the corn and you trade me the gold. Later we can trade the silk for anything that I have a duplicate of.

Since you're charismatic with (hopefully) stonehenge, happiness won't be as big a concern for you as it is for me. Likewise, I don't need health as much since I'm expansive, but you might have trouble with it on a map like this with few food resources or trees. And assuming I can get metal casting with the oracle, the gold will be worth 2 happiness for me. In this way, we'll both profit, and we can guarantee a peaceful border because we'll both be getting the resources that we want as long as we're at peace.

What do you think?

Sincerely,
Luddite

Basically, I settle next to the corn and he settles next to the gold, and then we trade each other those resources. Partly for mutual profit, and partly to insure a peaceful relationship. I really hope he accepts- an extra +2 happy from the gold would help me a lot.