RBPitboss #2 Athlete4life10 & Kalin

[kalin]

Every turn is a precious commodity IMO. Don't waste them.

I agree with that, particularly in the beginning.

Kalin

[athlete4life10]

I still think that chops are the right thing to do, both at Coruscant and Endor. The simple intuition is: if we finish the libraries faster we can also finish faster the worker/settler. It doesn't really matter where the chops go. I think it makes sense to finish the libraries asap given that we already invested hammers in them, so we may as well get the benefits.

Coruscant doesn't have good tiles to work at size 4. I have been meaning to say this for a while and I keep forgetting: the mined plains hill is not a good tile unless not growing, that is building worker/settler. We should have mined the grass hill if we had a choice. When working the plains hill mine we would grow slowly (+4F only). As such, we should not be growing at size 4 for long, hence the need to finish the lib faster so that we can switch to settler asap. A small correction too: Coruscant has only +7H production at size 4 and +4F.

Endor also would grow slowly at size 3 working the gold, so we should try to minimize growing at +3F only.

The reason why plains hill mines are not so good is that they "convert" 2F into 4H or 1F for 2H. A grass hill needs only 1F and gives 3H for a much better conversion. That is true in particular at the beginning of the game when growth is imo the most important. That is because growth becomes production via whip. Maybe a lurker can comment here a bit (T-Hawk? ).

In summary: I think we should put 1 chop both at Coruscant and at Endor in libraries, then continue on to settler/worker. I would like to hear your arguments if you disagree with this.

Kalin

My reasoning for for wanting to get the chops into the worker/settlers are two fold. Firstly it puts the chops to better use in my opinion as that's fewer time put into not growing. Secondly we don't need the library straight away. It's more important to get that worker/settler out. We need to save gold for math so if the libraries get delayed by a few turns it's not the end of the world.

If you want to get into opportunity cost then you've got the extra turns of the worker, the city founded sooner compared to no real benefit to having the library sooner.

Your argument of what Coruscant produces at size 4 (+7H, +4F) is wrong when considering a library. It's actually +14H and +4 Food. If I had the exact #'s in front of me I think it would help prove my point but it may only need one turn at size 4 to finish the library (dependant upon how many hammers it already has). Given this even if we moved into the forest next turn, we may not have enough time to even chop into the library. Some clear calculations are probably needed here.

In summary, I basically don't plan on growing at size 4 (Coruscant) or size 3 (Endor) while working the two tiles that are less than ideal for growth (plains/mine and gold). For growing we should be working cottages. Endor will be an incredible site able to grow and work the gold when we get calender and IW but until then we'll have to swap back and forth.

Athlete

[athlete4life10]

OB request has been sent to India.

We received an e-mail from the Empire:

Dear Kalin,

It looks like I moved Thannis before I saw your message. However, I can tell you that you have Iron 2 tiles west of your Horses.

Thannis is currently 1 tile southwest of the Horses. In which direction should I move him to contact Byzantium the most quickly? I'd like to finally earn my place in the "Public Players Thread," after all.


Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

Kalin's response:

Dear Whosit,

If you want to meet Byzantium, the best would be to get on a road and
follow it. However, I honestly believe you won't make it in time
Either way, you would have met "everybody" by then I would like you
to please try and unfog the coast so that we may get trade routes.

We are eagerly awaiting your response on the other mesage

Best,

Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

I really don't think he'll make it in time as well !

[kalin]

My reasoning for for wanting to get the chops into the worker/settlers are two fold. Firstly it puts the chops to better use in my opinion as that's fewer time put into not growing. Secondly we don't need the library straight away. It's more important to get that worker/settler out. We need to save gold for math so if the libraries get delayed by a few turns it's not the end of the world.

Are you suggesting to switch to settler/worker immediately and not finish the libraries then? I didn't quite get that before. I was under the impression that we would first finish the libraries then go on the settler/worker. If we save money, libraries can definitely wait and that's probably the way to go here. Remember that after 10 turns a build starts losing hammers.

Athlete, can you maybe put a plan together: the objective is to get settler/worker(s) out asap. That may still involve starting the chops btw.

Kalin

[athlete4life10]

Are you suggesting to switch to settler/worker immediately and not finish the libraries then? I didn't quite get that before. I was under the impression that we would first finish the libraries then go on the settler/worker. If we save money, libraries can definitely wait and that's probably the way to go here. Remember that after 10 turns a build starts losing hammers.

Athlete, can you maybe put a plan together: the objective is to get settler/worker(s) out asap. That may still involve starting the chops btw.

Kalin

Question: As Endor swapped from a library to a Horse Archer recently, and as Kalin points out after 10 turns it will start to lose hammers, if we put 1 turn into it before starting a worker (which is the plan to get it to size 3 first), will it have it's 10 turns start fresh? Or will it continue with the 10 from when the HA interrupted the library?

I believe the moment that Coruscant hits size 4 it should start a settler with a chop going into it. After doing some preliminary # crunching we'll have 64/100 into the Settler on T85 with 17/28 in the food bar. If we double whip T85 We get the Settler on T86 and grow back to size 3 on T87. The Library completes T87 and we have 30 overflow to pump into something else (lighthouse/galley maybe?) while working cottages to grow.

I'll work on something for Endor.

Athlete

[kalin]

Question: As Endor swapped from a library to a Horse Archer recently, and as Kalin points out after 10 turns it will start to lose hammers, if we put 1 turn into it before starting a worker (which is the plan to get it to size 3 first), will it have it's 10 turns start fresh? Or will it continue with the 10 from when the HA interrupted the library?

I am almost sure (99%) that it's 10 fresh turns, so if we put another turn in the library, we'll be safe.

I believe the moment that Coruscant hits size 4 it should start a settler with a chop going into it. After doing some preliminary # crunching we'll have 64/100 into the Settler on T85 with 17/28 in the food bar. If we double whip T85 We get the Settler on T86 and grow back to size 3 on T87. The Library completes T87 and we have 30 overflow to pump into something else (lighthouse/galley maybe?) while working cottages to grow.

I like the sound of that! Settler the moment Coruscant hits size 4, then whip it. We should be a bit careful with the happy cap as we whipped it a lot. I think those granaries we built first were a fantastic investment!

Thanks for working that out.

Kalin

[Ruff_Hi]

Question: As Endor swapped from a library to a Horse Archer recently, and as Kalin points out after 10 turns it will start to lose hammers, if we put 1 turn into it before starting a worker (which is the plan to get it to size 3 first), will it have it's 10 turns start fresh? Or will it continue with the 10 from when the HA interrupted the library?

IIRC, putting a turn or more into a building / unit does NOT reset the decay counter.

[Krill]

It's 50 turns for a building, 10 turns for a unit before the builds start to decay.

[kalin]

It's 50 turns for a building, 10 turns for a unit before the builds start to decay.

Thanks Krill/Ruff_hi for the answers.

I didn't know it was 50 turns for a building.

@Ruff: Are you sure? I could have sworn that the decay counter resets when you put a new turn. That would not be great if that's the case.

Does anyone know what is the rate of decay? 1H/turn?

EDIT: I confirm what Ruff said! Many thanks again for pointing it out.

Quote from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280372

"Once the decay starts you need to finish the item to avoid loss of hammers. "

@Athlete: we may need to rework our plan.

Kalin

[athlete4life10]

I think those granaries we built first were a fantastic investment!

In hindsight I'd definitely agree with you there. I wasn't so sure before but now I'm totally happy we did!