RBPitboss #2 Athlete4life10 & Kalin

[athlete4life10]

Thanks Krill/Ruff_hi for the answers.

I didn't know it was 50 turns for a building.

@Ruff: Are you sure? I could have sworn that the decay counter resets when you put a new turn. That would not be great if that's the case.

Does anyone know what is the rate of decay? 1H/turn?

EDIT: I confirm what Ruff said! Many thanks again for pointing it out.

Quote from here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280372

"Once the decay starts you need to finish the item to avoid loss of hammers. "

Kalin

Given that it's 50 turns for a building we're safe though right?

[athlete4life10]

E-mail from The Empire to CoW:

Members of the CotW,

And Jowy in particular. I, of course, received the message. Good to hear that you've secured a NAP with the Killer Angels. That should buy us the time that we need. The KA have four cities at the moment, at least according to my Diplomacy screen. But if they focus on expansion, I can believe the 7 city figure. The only good news is that extra expansion will take a drain on their commerce (probably minor), and it will force them to defend more territory, making a multi-pronged strike potentially more effective.

I would also like to assure everyone that I take the threat seriously. I second Jowy in saying that we have to make sure that, whatever we do, we permanently cripple them. Aside from their own skills and abilities to come back from the brink, my life experience has shown me that it is generally unwise to show mercy to an opponent in games like this. Even if we pillaged all of their territory down to the last road, if we fail to destroy their cities, kill their workers, and just leave them alone, they could easily make a comeback. Although we probably cannot crack their capital, it would be a major coup to raze it. Speaking of, what will our policy be on cities taken? I would favor a scorched earth policy, where cities are completely razed. While we could try to divide them among the Coalition, that seems neither realistic nor practical; I would certainly have no use for a city out there. So, we should burn them, and any Coalition members close enough can settle on the ashes if it is worth their while.

Based on some earlier discussion, it may not be feasible to destroy them completely if we lack siege. At a minimum, total pillaging and the burning of any vulnerable cities should be a must. Chances are we may have to leave their core intact. Something else to consider: Will we make peace when the mission is "accomplished," or should we all remain at war and basically keep them under permanent siege? The latter seems a bit impractical and in poor spirit as well. Speaking for myself, I wouldn't want to pay for a detachment of soldiers so far away in perpetuity. Perhaps, once we've dealt a solid blow, we'll sue for peace and each of us will station a reasonably strong unit in the area to keep on eye on the Killer Angels as they recover. If they look as though they are becoming strong again, we should destroy them.

Thoughts?

To victory,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

And an e-mail from the Empire to us:

Dear Kalin and Athlete,

I accept the proposal to official create a secret alliance. Hmm. The Greek-Imperial-Rebel Alliance? Doesn't have the best ring to it, though.

I agree to the defensive pact and a plan to partition the Inca at a later date. Will the defensive pact only "trigger" if one party is attacked, or are all members of the alliance supposed to assist other members in offensive wars? My assumption is that it would default to defensive wars. And, yes, I would assume that allies do not attack each other, making a NAP redundant.

I also agree that we should keep this secret. I have conversed with Jowy about this, as well, though I forgot to explicitly say to keep it under wraps. Not that I expect him to go about announcing it, of course.

I cannot think of anything else to add at the moment. I already have Open Borders with you and Jowy, though as allies we should never close borders unless some extreme circumstance requires it, though I cannot think of such a situation at the moment.

On a side note, Nakor believes that plako has acquired Copper, perhaps by settling on a source somewhere--maybe even on the outter islands. I plan to accelerate my time table and try to make some war gains before they can get too many axemen, because fortified Axemen will really cause Praetorians a headache. If I can secure P'yongyang (their second city) in the first couple of turns, I should have a decent chance of beating them through attrition. Unless anything goes terribly wrong, I should be able to move 5-6 Preatorians adjacent to the city on the first turn of war, and hopefully capture it on the second turn. It currently has 1 Archer in it, but I believe that plako has 2-3 Archers in the fog adjacent to the city. If this is true, then only one Archer will have fortification bonuses, at least.

The biggest danger is that they will send fast units towards Imperial Center, but if all else fails, I can whip out a unit to defend the capital. My back line cities should be safe from incursion.

That is a little more detail than I would normally provide, but I do trust you. And, if nothing else, you have motivation for my war to succeed: If I get bogged down in a stalemate with Korea, I cannot assist in the attack on the Killer Angels. If you have any tactical considerations that I have not thought of, I would love to hear them.

And in a brief response to your last message, I will go ahead and defog your coastal cities. I'll trust you to help me "meet every civilization" in your own way.

To the Alliance and friendship,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

[athlete4life10]

Kalin,

I've drafted up a response for Rome. The CoW e-mail though probably demands a response, in particular I think we need to fight for Mali and Greece to be gifted any cities that are captured and they would like to keep. It is a waste of resources to have to resettle the territory, but we've also already told them it's ok by us and part of the benefit of the whole plan.

Thoughts?

Athlete

[T-hawk]

Well, T-Hawk says never unless you need the building/unit asap IIRC.

Whoa, when did I say that? There are situations for which whipping is strictly superior, when it's a good set of tradeoffs, when it's a bad set of tradeoffs, and when it's strictly inferior.

@Ruff: Are you sure? I could have sworn that the decay counter resets when you put a new turn. That would not be great if that's the case.

Does anyone know what is the rate of decay? 1H/turn?

Decay doesn't happen if the city is actively producing an item, but other than that you cannot "refresh" an item by putting one turn into it, a unit will always decay after 10 turns if it's not on top of the queue.

Functionally, decay is 1H per turn unless you have more than 100 hammers into a wonder or 50 hammers into a unit.

[Krill]

Whoa, when did I say that? There are situations for which whipping is strictly superior, when it's a good set of tradeoffs, when it's a bad set of tradeoffs, and when it's strictly inferior.

Sounds good to me. Definitely don't whip grass miners. (A grass miner eats 1 food to make 3 hammers, a better ratio than any whip scenario.) The optimal whip time is probably at size 6 right before the size 7 growth, timed so that the city regrows to 5 even while building the worker (or settler). That gets growth on a smaller food box, and gets around one turn of non-growth on the worker. That's what I set up for China Beach. I'll hit the numbers in detail for Fishy in a few turns, since it seems clear that now isn't the right time.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showpost.php?...tcount=983

[athlete4life10]

Kalin,

I've been thinking it over more and I think we should start a worker at Endor immediately. The overflow and a chop will have it out very quickly and can head straight to Istanbul. We're going to have to chop a second forest to get the library anyways so getting the worker 3 or 4 turns sooner will be a big boon. Even if it delays size 3 for a few turns.

What do you think?

Athlete

[athlete4life10]

K, RA-7 was further away from the forest than I thought so I will attempt to do some calculations today at some point and post the difference between worker now and worker at size 3.

[kalin]

Kalin,

I've been thinking it over more and I think we should start a worker at Endor immediately. The overflow and a chop will have it out very quickly and can head straight to Istanbul. We're going to have to chop a second forest to get the library anyways so getting the worker 3 or 4 turns sooner will be a big boon. Even if it delays size 3 for a few turns.

What do you think?

Athlete

First things first: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!

Many thanks to the lurkers who stopped by and gave us good advice and information. We hope the fun will continue in the new year.

@Athlete: I think I like your idea. It makes sense given that we'll delay the library. One small change suggested: let's put the overflow into a worker, however let's grow the next turn so that we can work the cottage. If we built it we may as well work it. Istanbul won't need worker attention immediately since it's going to be in revolt for a bit. It will benefit from road connection though, but it will have trade routes via sailing.

Kalin

[athlete4life10]

First things first: HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY!

Many thanks to the lurkers who stopped by and gave us good advice and information. We hope the fun will continue in the new year.

@Athlete: I think I like your idea. It makes sense given that we'll delay the library. One small change suggested: let's put the overflow into a worker, however let's grow the next turn so that we can work the cottage. If we built it we may as well work it. Istanbul won't need worker attention immediately since it's going to be in revolt for a bit. It will benefit from road connection though, but it will have trade routes via sailing.

Kalin

Yes, eh hem, Happy New Year to Everybody and again thanks for all the help from the lurkers! I hope you continue to enjoy the read .

@Kalin,

I like the idea of overflow into the worker and then grow for a turn and then back to the worker.

Athlete

[athlete4life10]

Sent an e-mail off to The Galactic Empire:

Hail Almighty Emperor Whosit,

> I accept the proposal to official create a secret alliance.

Excellent!

> I agree to the defensive pact and a plan to partition the Inca at a later
> date. Will the defensive pact only "trigger" if one party is attacked, or
> are all members of the alliance supposed to assist other members in
> offensive wars? My assumption is that it would default to defensive wars.
> And, yes, I would assume that allies do not attack each other, making a NAP
> redundant.

We would agree that it is a "defensive pact". Aid should be provided on a case by case basis and once the tide is turned, then the "helper" could then resort back to it's original plan(s).

> I also agree that we should keep this secret. I have conversed with Jowy
> about this, as well, though I forgot to explicitly say to keep it under
> wraps. Not that I expect him to go about announcing it, of course.

This is good that the 3 of us are aware. We have established a pretty similar relationship with Jowy and believe him to be trustworthy as well as saavy enough to know not to mention this to others. Has Jowy sent you anything formal in regards to an acceptance into a 3-way alliance? He has sent a message to us confirming this, we just want to make sure we are all on the same page. We should include everybody in these communications henceforth and we shall also need to think of a better name, as you pointed out the current one doesn't sound so hot.

> On a side note, Nakor believes that plako has acquired Copper, perhaps by
> settling on a source somewhere--maybe even on the outter islands. I plan to
> accelerate my time table and try to make some war gains before they can get
> too many axemen, because fortified Axemen will really cause Praetorians a
> headache. If I can secure P'yongyang (their second city) in the first couple
> of turns, I should have a decent chance of beating them through attrition.
> Unless anything goes terribly wrong, I should be able to move 5-6
> Preatorians adjacent to the city on the first turn of war, and hopefully
> capture it on the second turn. It currently has 1 Archer in it, but I
> believe that plako has 2-3 Archers in the fog adjacent to the city. If this
> is true, then only one Archer will have fortification bonuses, at least.

Well this is a shame they have secured copper. Given that you will be attacking shortly, hopefully you can get them before they are fully prepared. We would much prefer this to be as quick and painless for you as possible, thus allowing you to stay on track with CoW, and eventually getting into REX mode before we jump on the Inca .

> The biggest danger is that they will send fast units towards Imperial
> Center, but if all else fails, I can whip out a unit to defend the capital.
> My back line cities should be safe from incursion.

Is the Imperial Center coastal? You may need to beware of a potential galley attack. If you do not have atleast 1 solid unit in the Imperial Center it would be a bold move by Korea to strike there. 1Axe/Spear and an archer should suffice but beware of any potential weaknesses. We will generally try and offer advice but without great knowledge of the area and obviously of the units we can only do so much. And neither of us claim to be great tacticians. Sometimes it pays to be a bit lucky .

> That is a little more detail than I would normally provide, but I do trust
> you. And, if nothing else, you have motivation for my war to succeed: If I
> get bogged down in a stalemate with Korea, I cannot assist in the attack on
> the Killer Angels. If you have any tactical considerations that I have not
> thought of, I would love to hear them.

Believe us, your trust is well placed. As odd as it might seem the Rebel Alliance wants nothing more then a quick Imperial victory; atleast until it comes time for us to clash sabers . On a side note we'll show our trust in return and let you officially meet every civilization on T82. We have 100% confidence you will know everybody by then . Obviously we need that kept under wraps for now!

> And in a brief response to your last message, I will go ahead and defog your
> coastal cities. I'll trust you to help me "meet every civilization" in your
> own way.

Trade routes will benefit everybody! We shall of course have to finish defogging through the Inca capital to secure them with you, however you will gain them as soon as you complete sailing. We shall probably have that acheived by roughly T90.

May the force be with you,

Athlete for A/K
The Rebel Alliance

Also received one from The Galactic Empire:

Dear Athlete and Kalin,

Just an update on the Korean situation. I believe that I mentioned that Korea has found a source of Copper. Plako has been busy producing Axemen. This will make things significantly more difficult, but I do not believe that it will be insurmountable, although it depends on how quickly he continues to produce new units. My attack should commence in the next few turns, and I think the odds are in my favor, but not enough I can ignore bad luck. I don't think that I will fully know where I stand until the dust clears after the first battle.

The good news is that I should have Sailing done in the next 3 turns (Turn 83), so we should be able to get trade routes to each other.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

I'm not so sure this needs a response now, as I think I covered anything mentioned here in the last one.