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Is that character a variant? (I just love getting asked that in channel.) - Charis |
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FfH Paring Questions
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Krill Wrote:What are you defining as a rush? Since you mentioned their vulnerability to being "smothered in the cradle", I assume that meant an attack with anything up to T2 units, before the opponent can be reasonably expected to have anything more advanced.
It's a metaphor, but...I suppose that's about right. But even then, what T3 units do the Amurites have that are frankly useful? Arcane units are no longer a means to field an army that can survive by themselves, they are merely support units, and Smelting+IW costs less than Sourcery+node tech...civs that can make use of the melee line have been boosted because it's been made easier to utilise those units. I'm not entirely sure if that's been taken into account yet.
FWIW, I've managed to get to IW before t100 with the Luirchip via bulbing after being at constant war from t20 and not planting a second city, and with the Khazad after saving up over 1k gold in a more peaceful game. I dread to think what a dedicated beeline could do.
T3 self-sufficient spell casters is what the Amurites are all about. Priest units with spells via Govannon, Firebow, Royal Guards, Insta-Mages, self-hasting mounted, etc. The Amurites start pulling away from everyone else rather dramatically by the late-middle game, and they utterly dominate it in the late game. They absolutely do not need a boost. If they get crushed early on because they're very strong later, well that's the risk you take. It's not much different from selecting a character in a fighting game who has massively powerful moves but with long start-up animations that leave them vulnerable. Except here their animations aren't even any slower than several other civs. The Amurites do get super-early floating eyes, I guess maybe that could count as an early-game advantage anyway.
Bobchillingworth Wrote:T3 self-sufficient spell casters is what the Amurites are all about. Priest units with spells via Govannon, Firebow, Royal Guards, Insta-Mages, self-hasting mounted, etc. The Amurites start pulling away from everyone else rather dramatically by the late-middle game, and they utterly dominate it in the late game. They absolutely do not need a boost. If they get crushed early on because they're very strong later, well that's the risk you take. The Amurites do get super-early floating eyes, I guess maybe that could count as an early-game advantage anyway. Perhaps it's just me, but the Firebow doesn't actually seem that great a unit? 7/7 with iron, can summon fireball, but needs over 1k of tech above and beyond Smelting to get there. Otherwise it's a 1k detour from mages fpor a 6/6 unit with copper that can get bombard that you can counter with...bronze warriors? I don't get the point of arcane units anymore, or more specifically ,I don't get the point of "awesome" arcane units that are insta-mages (Malakim can do the same thing) if you are just going to use priests which are more versatile once you get Govannon.
Firebow are draftable at a good cost, can demolish enemy stacks with fireballs / summons w/ Govannon teaching, get bonus strength from flaming arrows, are strong enough to take on several other T3 units and win, and are hardcore city defenders. Saying that bronze warriors counter them is a bit of an exaggeration
 Amurite insta-mages upgrade directly from normally-created adepts, thanks to the Cave of Ancestors. Govannon-taught priest units do make them somewhat redundant, but since Govannon can't be reasonably expected to have every T1 spell to spread around, they still have a role. Also adepts are cheaper than priests.
I say countered in that you can defend with the bronze warriors. I'd reckon you can defend almost anything with bronze warriors plus other support units (adepts), with the right set up. However, you just illustrated the point that you need a lot of supporting techs to make Firebows work well. Specifically, you need to have the ability to field T3 units of your own...
Quote:Amurite insta-mages upgrade directly from normally-created adepts, thanks to the Cave of Ancestors. Govannon-taught priest units do make them somewhat redundant, but since Govannon can't be reasonably expected to have every T1 spell to spread around, they still have a role. Also adepts are cheaper than priests. The useful T1 spells: Water, Sun, Shadow, Metamagic, Entropy, Enchantment, Earth, Life, Death, Chaos, Body. 11 spells, of which 8 have a direct military bent. I dunno, but I think Govannon could actually get all of them, with mana trades or nodes? Also, adepts are weaker units than priests. Priests can actually fight. Not that it really matters, when you are going up against strength 8 champions before you can get to Govannon?
To expand on what Bob said: firebows are decent units by themselves, but only come into their own when paired with Govannon. Then they become less-squishy mages (who can never upgrade to archmages and don't get passive XP, but you get my point). There are lots of cool things you can do with them - stoneskin, water walking, etc. You have to spend a promotion for each level 2 sphere, though, so you need to plan carefully.
Amelia's point is valid, too, though: it takes a *lot* of beakers to get to that point. A little belaboring of my point in the other thread: why bother with the arcane line, or even priests, when you can have fast collateral units at Construction + Horseback Riding? I think Creative may be the best trait now, so you can push the borders and one-move the other guy's cities. |
