What do you guys think of enableing hooking up whales with fishing or sailing? I think until now this resource is pretty useless and the tile yield is certainly not overpowered compared to gold, gems or luxury which you can get very early in the game.
Krill Wrote:Congratulations, you just made cottage the one right choice again. I look forward to playing with my MI hammer towns...
And how much stronger are they really than SP Workshops?
SP workshop = 4 base hammers + an additional 10% hammers
US Town = 1 base hammer + 5 commerce @ +100% = 1 hammer + 10 commerce @ 2g per hammer = 1 base hammer + 5 MI hammers, but for a max of about 2 Towns/city.
US/FS Town = 1 base hammer + 7 commerce @ +100% = 1 hammer + 14 commerce @ 3g per hammer = 1 base + just under 5 MI hammers.
So, at +100% hammer multipliers, I'm getting:
SP: 8.4 hammers (+ the boost to mines and other hammer sources)
US Town: 12 hammers
US/FS Town: 11 1/3 hammers
Difference: 3 or 3.6 hammers per turn.
I'm also paying:
A Great Person for the shrine (or else you lose a decent share of your profits)
Not saving my distance maintenance (there goes half the difference)
100h and 50gp to build (The 100h cost of the executive is 30t of the town's profit margin by itself, not counting the gold or everything else)
Not boosting my mines and other hammer sources
MI towns are balanced. QED.
The cottage-workshop issue isn't about corporations, it's about how they compare in the mid-game; SP workshops are at least as good at production as US MI towns if the game isn't going to stay in doubt for 100t at that point.
Cyneheard Wrote:And how much stronger are they really than SP Workshops?
SP workshop = 4 base hammers + an additional 10% hammers
US Town = 1 base hammer + 5 commerce @ +100% = 1 hammer + 10 commerce @ 2g per hammer = 1 base hammer + 5 MI hammers, but for a max of about 2 Towns/city.
US/FS Town = 1 base hammer + 7 commerce @ +100% = 1 hammer + 14 commerce @ 3g per hammer = 1 base + just under 5 MI hammers.
So, at +100% hammer multipliers, I'm getting:
SP: 8.4 hammers (+ the boost to mines and other hammer sources)
US Town: 12 hammers
US/FS Town: 11 1/3 hammers
Difference: 3 or 3.6 hammers per turn.
You don't have +100% hammer multipliers when you get to corps, you have +25%. You get +100% gold modifiers by the time you get to Lib though.
That is comparing cottages to workshops at the absolute most best thing workshops do: production. Compare them at gold or beaker generation and you'll find that towns blow workshops out of the water.
So, at +100% hammer multipliers, I'm getting:
SP: 8.4 hammers (+ the boost to mines and other hammer sources) = 8.4 bpt/gpt
US Town: 12 bpt/gpt
US/FS Town: 16 bpt/gpt
Lets take a closer look at Civ jewellers: costs 1gpt, so a town (5c + 100%) can support 10 resources which gives 10 gpt. That 10gpt then goes through the multipliers again and gives 20gpt, plus a bunch of free culture. In other words, Civ Jewelers gives you gold and culture for free if you pay the opportunity cost of not using CC or MI. The same logic applies to Ethanol and Aluminium Co, the multipliers get used twice so the output covers the input costs and generates tasty, exploitative, profit.
Quote:I'm also paying:
A Great Person for the shrine (or else you lose a decent share of your profits)
Not saving my distance maintenance (there goes half the difference)
100h and 50gp to build (The 100h cost of the executive is 30t of the town's profit margin by itself, not counting the gold or everything else)
Not boosting my mines and other hammer sources
The above doesn't take into account the "shrine", which again will generally go to the first player to reach it because you'll be generating gold from the corps that everyone else is going to be spreading (woot, spread a corp and help an opponent. At least with religions there were multiple copies that were identical). 3gpt per city, including other players that has the corp?
Distance maintenance is a lot less than is expected now, especially with the tweak to toroidal maps. The FM trade route and bonus is about the same magnitude as the saved gold from distance maintenance before multipliers looking at my previous games.
Anyone that wants to run corps has this problem: those that get there late will be running into the leader who has just set his up and is now reaping the profit, just as you are hitting techs such as Flight and Ind, which have military implications. That isn't the main problem though: because of how the workshop is balanced earlier in the game you are not going to have many things to build by the time you reach corps, with the last of the multiplier buildings being put down by the time you reach democracy for Emancipation fueled cottage growth. The gold? Because you are running at +25% hpt from the forge but +100% from the gold multipliers, that gold is well within the "profit" region of cottages.
Have you seen what you just did to Environmentalism? +1fpt, +1hpt, +3cpt? Without Electricity boost yet to come, and without Serfdom? Mines are not the only improvements you can put on hills. You could cottage them if you wanted.
Quote:MI towns are balanced. QED.
The cottage-workshop issue isn't about corporations, it's about how they compare in the mid-game; SP workshops are at least as good at production as US MI towns if the game isn't going to stay in doubt for 100t at that point.
I disagree, the problem is explicitly about workshops being cut off just as they get the final boost because FS comes too early and corps produce either free output or make cottages the most flexible improvement in the game.
Oh, right, that's my fault. It's an XML change that T-Hawk told me I needed to do but then forgot to do.
I'll have a chance to fix that tonight.
Does anyone have an objection to switching to Krill's No Corps changes?
What he did:
Removed Corps completely (I can make that a little cleaner in the Civpedia and whatnot)
Free Speech is now an Econ civic, High Upkeep, and requires SciMeth
Enviro is a little bit different now:
It's a Legal Civic
Teched at Liberalism
+1g to specialists, +3 health, Low Upkeep, +2 commerce to Forest Preserves.
Great Lighthouse only provides 1 trade route. Makes it less of a game-distorting world wonder.
Theory behind the Econ civics:
FM and Merc become "stepping stones" to FS or SP; the choice there is mostly workshops vs. cottages.
Enviro: Obviously great for a specialist economy. There's still some room for debate on whether or not it's good enough.
Theoretically, one could run Rep/Enviro/Caste/Merc and have the Statue for 14 free commerce per city, but by the time you have the Statue, you've got FS or SP available in the near-term, and is Enviro worth running with just 1 free specialist per city, relative to Vassalage, Bureau, or Nationhood? Nationhood is weaker now, with Rifles requiring 2 pop, but Vassalage is somewhat better (free military units for Pacifism, and Medium Upkeep).
I'd also point out that if you really want to abuse Bureaucracy you could feasibly get 800 bpt capitals (without Bureaucracy you're down at something like 550bpt).
Krill Wrote:I'd also point out that if you really want to abuse Bureaucracy you could feasibly get 800 bpt capitals (without Bureaucracy you're down at something like 550bpt).
This is partially a side effect of moving FS away from the Bureau column; that's about 20% of that output: 18 towns is plausible, and provides 36 commerce * 1.5 for Bureau * 3.25 for Oxford, Academy, Lib/Uni/Observatory, so FS itself is worth 54 * 3.25 = 173bpt or so. Previously, you had to choose there.
However, I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing; Bureau isn't a great late-game civic currently. And you still probably have to pass up OR in order to do it, because getting +2XP in your cities is highly valuable.
New Enviro proposal:
Remove the health bonuses completely. Enviro would only provide (still Legal Civic @ Lib):
+1g to specialists
+1c to farms and pastures
+2c to Forest Preserves
Even more tailored to the specialist economy, but a little something for all seasons as well. Still, with an indirectly-buffed Bureau, and Vassalage and Nationhood sitting there as well, with Bureau and Vassalage already in play before Enviro, IMO it's not the obvious civic choice in that column unless you're going specialist-happy.
And these Apostolic Palace resolutions are going to disappear:
1. Declare war on X
Prerequisite: One Full Member (but not all Full Members) must be at war with X, and X must be a Non-Member.
If passed, all Members are instantly at war with X.
3. Force Peace on X
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Full Member and at war with a Member.
If passed, a 10 turn Cease Fire is implemented among all Members.
6. Assign city from X to Y:
Prerequisite: Civ X must be a Voting Member, but not Full Member, and Civ Y must be a Full Member. The two civs must not be at war. Civ Y must have a higher culture on the city plot (not the city itself) than Civ X does.
If passed the city is transferred intact with all buildings but no units.
War declarations need to be sovereign decision of players. Period. Also, these are the non-reversible decisions; they have permanent effects (like ruining trade routes). The Religious Victory, well, that's up to the players. Certainly made PB1's endgame a little more interesting.
Changes from Krill's v1.32 to v1.33:
Culture in a NoEspionage game should work properly now.
Environmentalism is the version that I posted:
+1g to specialists
+1c to farms and pastures, +2c to forest preserves
No Health Bonus (including from Public Transport)
Low Upkeep
Requires Liberalism
Labor Civic
The AP resolutions "Force Peace", "Force War", and "Assign City" now require 100 players to be in the game, instead of 3. So those resolutions should never come up.
Corporations were cleanly removed from the game (FYI: one has to delete the buildings, the building classes, the executives, and all of the information in the CorporationInfos file, to remove corporations)
1) Tile Changes:
Watermills: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Rep Parts
Workshops: +1 base hammers, no longer receives +1h at Chemistry
Mines: +1h at Rep Parts
2) Civic Changes:
Vassalage now provides free support for military units as well (meaning Pacifism is cheaper), and is Medium Upkeep
Slavery: 30h for the 1st pop, 20h for the 2nd pop and subsequent pops. So, 30/50/70/90. On Quick speed, that's 20/33/46/60. *CHANGE from 0.3*
Serfdom: +75% Worker Speed, +1h for Watermills and Windmills
Free Market: No longer provides -25% Corporate Costs. Now provides +25% Trade Route Yield.
Environmentalism: No longer provides +25% Corporate Costs, or +2 commerce to windmills. Provides +1 gold per specialist, +1c to farms and pastures, +2c to forest preserves, and Low upkeep. Swapped with Free Speech. Now at Liberalism
Free Speech: Now High Upkeep, swapped with Environmentalism. Now at Scientific Method
3) The Draft
Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft. A city must now end a draft at size 7 instead of size 5 (So size 9 to draft a rifle, size 8 to draft a musket).
4) War Weariness
Decays 10%/turn during Peacetime. *Change from 0.3/0.4: Wartime WW is now unchanged*
5) Espionage
Switch Civic and Switch Religion now require Future Tech
Spies now spawn with "Secretive", and cannot see tiles except the one they're standing on.
The No Espionage game option now works properly:
GSpy points are converted into Great Merchant points
Espionage no longer gets converted into culture
Cultural expansion now happens at normal values
Spies cannot be built
Graphs are always visible on contact
6) Wonder Changes
The Great Wall now provides Great Merchant points This has been restored to GSpy points.
Red Cross: 200h
West Point: 550h, +5XP. Now requires a lvl 5 unit (17XP/13XP for Cha)
Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route
7) Unit Changes:
War Elephants are now 7 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, and +25% vs. Knights
8 ) UU and UB changes:
Rebalancing:
Terraces now give +1 culture
Praetorians have no Penalty
Cataphracts are 11 strength
Ballista Elephants are 8 str, +50% vs. Mounted units, +25% vs. Knights, and still target Mounteds outside of a city (this buff was to make them better than regular WE against their nemesis, Knights)
Vultures now get +30% vs. Melee.
The Fast Worker is now 2 moves, but starts with Mobility (-1 Terrain Movement Costs).
Remaking:
American Mall: Now replaces the Grocer. Provides +1 happy for Deer, Sugar, Hit Singles, Hit Movies, and Hit Musicals
American Minuteman: Replaces the Rifleman, starts with Gureilla I and Woodsman I
Japanese Pagoda: Replaces the Observatory. +10% hammers.
German Assembly Plant: Normal factory, but enabled at Steam Power
German Kanone: Replaces the Cannon, costs 80h instead of 120h
Russian Research Institute: Replaces the university, +1 free scientist
9) Trait changes:
Financial: Require 3 commerce on land to receive the bonus commerce. Water tiles still only require 2 commerce to receive the bonus, though. Remember: A Golden Age cannot trigger Financial's bonus yield (as in the base game).
Expansive: No longer gets double-speed granaries, but gets double-speed grocers. +35% Worker Production.
Creative: Restored to vanilla BtS version: it still provides double-speed libraries.
Charismatic: +2 happiness, but no longer gets +1 happy from Monuments
Protective: Double-speed granaries
Imperialistic: Double-speed Custom Houses (At least this gives Imp something on water maps. For flavor, Custom Houses are very mercantile, which is what 17th century Imperialism was). +67% Settler Production.
10) Corporations
Completely removed from the game.
11) Miscellaneous:
Coastal Blockade now has a range of 1 square around the blockader, instead of 3 squares
Barracks: increased cost to 60 hammers, +1 culture
