[SPOILERS] Balseraphs: A Guide to Mis-Management (by Kyan and TT)

[Krill]

What are the goodies? Gibbon, puppets and shit loads of summons. So that's the aim, but we want as many free promos that are useful on Gibbon as possible. Looking at those numbers, it's trivially easy to get W3 N3 on Gibbon using the free promo and trading for the Nature mana, meaning we'd only need 37 XP to get to Twincast.

[Krill]

Um, this is a bit scary. Luckily the pact of Nilhorn hasn't been built so these really are barb units.




Well, here is the set up, the griffon can double move NCs' city, and it is probably his capital. It can heal, or it could go and explore the wreck. Kyan is back tomorrow I think, so he can decide what to do.

[Krill]

One thing I didn't explain was why I waited a turn to pop the hut with the griffon. The reason is pretty simple, actually. I wanted to make sure that I wouldn't meet another player by popping the hut, and blowing the griffons cover - barb griffons don't pop huts. Moving onto the peak allowed me to pop the hut afterwards knowing that the griffon wasn't going to get uncovered.

[Bobchillingworth]

What are the goodies? Gibbon, puppets and shit loads of summons. So that's the aim, but we want as many free promos that are useful on Gibbon as possible. Looking at those numbers, it's trivially easy to get W3 N3 on Gibbon using the free promo and trading for the Nature mana, meaning we'd only need 37 XP to get to Twincast.

I think that Darrell's point was in part that it's going to be difficult to get so many different mana types. You're right that the advantages for Gibbon would be very significant, but I question how many sources of palace mana players would be willing to give up, especially since you need to have all of them at once when Gibbon is created to get the free promotions benefit. It's going to be hard to get trade routes with everyone in the time frame you're talking about, to say nothing of convincing them to give you mana when you aren't able to lend them your own sources in return. Plus if you want to have your own nodes set, that's going to take tech, possibly up to four of them (Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, Necromancy), and that isn't cheap.


I'd personally just focus on one, maybe two combat summons for the guy, and then decide if you want Mind III, support spells (Nature III, Law III, etc.) or combat-boosters (Combat I-V, Spell Extension). All of the combat summons you've mentioned are viable choices, btw- you just don't really need more than one or two at most of them to kill early units, which would be the presumed intention of a rush.



Also, regarding vitalize- it would be a totally awesome spell with the land at hand, but it might not be as efficient as you're hoping. Vitalizing a tile takes a few turns, and I don't think the puppets will last long enough to get the job done. Not so much of an issue if the game "remembers" the amount of time you put into vitalizing each tile like it does with terrain improvements, but I'm not sure that it does. You'll have to test it. You can def. Spring the heck out of the land using puppets, at least (and that's probably good enough for the short-term anyway)

[Krill]

I think that Darrell's point was in part that it's going to be difficult to get so many different mana types. You're right that the advantages for Gibbon would be very significant, but I question how many sources of palace mana players would be willing to give up, especially since you need to have all of them at once when Gibbon is created to get the free promotions benefit. It's going to be hard to get trade routes with everyone in the time frame you're talking about, to say nothing of convincing them to give you mana when you aren't able to lend them your own sources in return. Plus if you want to have your own nodes set, that's going to take tech, possibly up to four of them (Alteration, Divination, Elementalism, Necromancy), and that isn't cheap.

I disagree that it'd be that difficult to get deals done for palace mana, or covering the deals if we only trade for say, 3, maybe 4 resources. I'm not suggesting we trade for every mana we can get our hands on, only that we decide now which we target.

One of the reasons to make that decision right now is also to limit the amount of techs we'll need to set up our own nodes. If all we want to do is to grab W3 plus N3, then we focus on trading for the 3 nature mana in the game, and then we can get W3 just by researching Elementalism. Anything else is a bonus, say we can also trade for the two water mana, we can instead use some nodes as air nodes and try to get the A3 summons, but depending on how that goes we can make the deal with Rawking for his Air mana. Basically, see how it goes along the line and adjust our plans, but right now we need to decide on first, second and third choices and what strategy to persue.

I'd personally just focus on one, maybe two combat summons for the guy, and then decide if you want Mind III, support spells (Nature III, Law III, etc.) or combat-boosters (Combat I-V, Spell Extension). All of the combat summons you've mentioned are viable choices, btw- you just don't really need more than one or two at most of them to kill early units, which would be the presumed intention of a rush.

Agreed on the combat summons. Looking at the other options though, Nature 3 just looks about the best support spell possible, and even if you think it's difficult to set up the palace mana deals, it's easier than any of the others to get except perhaps Mind3. We could, using just Elementalism, get any of the tier 3 summons now with no trades. Fire3, Water3, Earth3 are all options, but the Air3 promo is easier to get due to our palace mana.

Also, regarding vitalize- it would be a totally awesome spell with the land at hand, but it might not be as efficient as you're hoping. Vitalizing a tile takes a few turns, and I don't think the puppets will last long enough to get the job done. Not so much of an issue of the game "remembers" the amount of time you put into vitalizing each tile like it does with terrain improvements, but I'm not sure that it does. You'll have to test it. You can def. Spring the heck out of the land using puppets, at least (and that's probably good enough for the short-term anyway)

Puppets Vitalize in 1 turn

[uberfish]

Vitalize does not take multiple turns to cast, you are thinking of Bloom.

[Krill]

After trawling through the thread...

I've proposed a long term NAP, settling rights to all the floodplains and the marble. In addition, he lends us both his palace mana when required and we will lend him sun mana when required (with notice).

I'll tie in a few more bits and pieces also, but nothing too exciting. I am nicking 'his' marble source and a city 6 tiles from his capital. His mana types should be useful for a) a free promotion and b) maybe vitalize later on. Is it nature 2 that lets me destroy undead?

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....stcount=80

lol. That's the free nature and air mana sorted! Just need the Elohim sources of water and nature sorted out, and guess what, we're going to war with them in the future. Expect that to be difficult to sort out that mana?

NAP Proposal between Balseraphs and Hippus

- NAP until and including turn 160
-Heroic archmages have their own personal NAP extension which prohibits them from offensive action until turn 170
- Balseraphs, with at least ten turns notice, must be willing to lend marble to the Hippus if at all possible. Undetermined length for marble loans, essentially whenever the balseraphs are not using it is valid.

-Neither civilisation must *ever* use Sol Pass for any action that could, in any way, be deemed aggresive to the other party without express permission.
-Balseraphs, with at least ten turns notice, must be willing to lend two mana types (of hippus choosing) to to the Hippus if at all possible, except that mind mana must have twenty turns notice to be guaranteed access.

-The Hippus must, with at least ten turns notice, be willing to lend two mana types (of Balseraph choosing) to the Balseraphs if at all possible.
- Both parties will warn of hostilities or aggresive diplomacy/actions from third party nations towards the other involved in the treaty.
-Both parties will keep the strength of their relationship secret from the other nations, only stating that they have a NAP with the other if asked (but not specifying the duration).
-The Hippus cede all land between the two civilizations to the Balseraphs.

http://realmsbeyond.net/forums/showpost....stcount=90



I think the most difficult part of getting free A3 and N2 promotions (taking N3 with the free promo) is going to be the Elves. Ideally we could get their palace Air and Nature mana, but supposedly Gaspar and Kyan don't get along. Oh well...time for me to piss him off then.

Also...what about build the Shrine of the champion prior to Gibbon, for the free promo?

[Krill]

And to hand over the save to Kyan, here is a quick report:

• The Griffon should move 9 then stop. That should give contact with Nic, and you can check to see if there is a second city or not. If there isn't, then there is the chance to kill him out right. If you want to continue and attack, the griffon should be moved E from the hill, so that it's not going to be attacked under any circumstances, and still has the ability to attack the city next turn.
  
  
  
• The northern lizard needs to run away north asap. Probably for the best to just move him to scout out the area where the warrior is scouting. The southern lizard is at risk of getting cut off by the giants, so either needs to push forward, or retreat...
  
  
  
• One worker needs to finish irrigating, the other should move 41 and should start to irrigate the fp that is just inside the capital 3rd ring next turn. The other worker should follow next turn.
  
  
  
• Build into Loki this turn, or an elder council. I think the council might be the best choice, but you are going to spend 1 turn unhappy at size 6 before you finish the carnival.

[darrelljs]

Bob's right...you are wasting your time figuring out all that Gibbon free promo junk. You want Death, lots of Death. Four Mind and four Death would be swell because you could get twincast faster. If you waste Gibbon transforming, I will buy a plane ticket to England, steal your computer, and never let you play again. A better idea would be to figure out how to get 6 base XPs on your Adepts:



Darrell

[Kyan]

Longer post following, but for now:



Sheaim lands. Griffon still has 1 move left. I've thrown Nicolae an email. If no response by midnight GMT, i will move in going 1E as per Krill's correct suggestion.

Now... you also have that long to persuade me not to take some tasty odds (~80%) on killing a hill giant.

Benefits:

-more xp on our super hunter. Nearer the range for a super unit to build that wonder (form of the titan?). What better way to start an adept on it's way to mage?

- removes a dangerous aggresive barbarian

Negatives:

- i can't capture it later. I can't see how we can capture him within the next 100 turns and even then, it's not that amazing a unit. If you want giants that bad, we can build Nilhorn.

-our super hunter might lose.