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FFH2 - Postgame Thread

*shrug* Most people (correctly IMO) think Mist played it right. You could try and argue that he didn't but he did make a threat, and he did follow through with it, and the Dwarves didn't come out of it in good shape. Was the price extortionate? Relatively not. High? Not compared to getting crippled, and losing Barnaxus. You say the deal wasn't beneficial when it plainly was: you don't lose barnaxus and you don't get invaded. That is a benefit. If you accepted the deal you would have been in a better position than if you refused it. You said you thought you could have negotiated it into a better deal for you, you forgot Mist had nothing to lose because he'd already lost it playing that civ. You can't get a mulligan in negotiations. If you say no, you do not get another chance to back up and say "OK, we'll pay".

Effectively Dwarves screwed up the metagame at that junction.
Current games (All): RtR: PB83

Ended games (Selection): BTS games: PB1, PB3, PBEM2, PBEM4, PBEM5B, PBEM50. RB mod games: PB5, PB15, PB27, PB37, PB42, PB46, PB71 PB80. FFH games: PBEMVII, PBEMXII. Civ 6:  PBEM22 PBEM23Games ded lurked: PB18
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Quote:You say the deal wasn't beneficial when it plainly was: you don't lose barnaxus and you don't get invaded.

Losing Barnaxus wasn't something we knew would happen even if war occurred.

Metagame wise, if the Doviello attack us they lose something too. The ability to get a 2 vs 1 against an unprepared civ. We thought that was worth enough to them to be worth negotiating for. (Although we were thinking they would be raking in cash through Conquest empowered city captures)

Quote:I was nowhere near Warfare. I didn't even have Ancient Chants. Even assuming I wanted it back then, it'd take me somewhere around 30 turns to limp to it. By which point whole party would be long over either way. If you include upgrade costs ( 30g per worker *8 ) and maintenance in hostile territory per turn ( 10 units, at least ten turns ) I really was borderline profitable. It's all fun to list all the hypothetical profits I could get from pillage, but it couldn't be further from truth. And the payment would be due at Currency, which would be how long in the future? With how much income then?

The fact that you were nowhere near warfare and nowhere near currency is news to me. Warfare in particular, is a pretty easy tech to get to since you already had the more expensive bronze working prerequisite. If you're actually legitimately looking to take cities for profit, then not having warfare for the conquest civic is almost criminal.

It does significantly change the equation... but seriously.. why no warfare!?
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Selrahc Wrote:It does significantly change the equation... but seriously.. why no warfare!?
0) Crafting from a hut
1) Agriculture - Calendar
2) Decide to rush
3) Festivals ( Markets + GMerchant ) to finance upgrades.
4) Mining - Bronze Working
Aaand... it's turn 60, time to go. It is not possible to squeeze Warfare into initial 60 turns and at the same time get enough cash for Asena upgrades.

You'd actually spot all my techs with some basic C&D. I had 6 techs at the time, was in Agrarianism ( so Agri - Calendar ) and threatened Asena ( so Crafting, Mining, BW ). That leaves one more tech, let's say AC. It's still whole Education and Warfare before I can take conquest.
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I don't really accept the premise that Festivals is such a necessity. Education cottages could get you the cash to upgrade units, as well as helping out your tech rate. As well as pushing you closer to techs like warfare and code of laws.
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Pregame

Ljosalfar aren't the fastest civ in the game by a long way. I picked them partly because I like playing the civ (it suits my style) and partly because I felt they had two diplomatic advantages: early contact and a strong defensive world spell that could deter opportunistic attacks. In my opinion these turned out to be significant in this game. Another thing I didn't really realize until later is that as elves you can stockpile Priests of Leaves without arousing suspicion because you need them to Bloom anyway. So "speak softly and carry a big stick" works well.

Early game

I wasn't pleased at all with the lack of Calendar resources at the start, but got lucky with a Great Sage from the Pyre which kept me slightly above the research curve in the early game. I had to sign a really long NAP with Mist, but it was worth it so that he'd attack someone else (with me providing covert assistance.) The rush he did on Sciz was well planned out and I wouldn't have liked to face it myself. I'd have been happy if he destroyed Sciz and became a strong ally, but unfortunately Ilios managed to break up the attack by supplying copper. In any case, I gained a good city site due to this war - Eaca.

Due to the poor availability of commerce specials and the high availability of animals, I decided to play vertical growth early to cut down on maintenance until I unlocked the Crafting/Mining/BW tree and have my Deruptus + Zoo capital do the heavy lifting. This worked because the general approach this game was to make settling agreements (so there wasn't so much a rush to fill the land.)

Anti-Malakim coalition I

Again early contact was important here because I was able to pass messages around between civs that hadn't contacted each other. Everyone seemed to be complaining about Ilios' GNP, so I suggested they talk to each other about it. Calabim then sent the "tall poppy" letter around and tried to drag me into the fight. There was pretty much no way I could meet the proposed attack schedule without sacrificing a lot of economy, and I told everyone as much. It's not like I would actually get any land since I was on the other side of the world anyway. If the attack had taken place later I would probably have sent some Horsemen. In any case, the attack was poorly coordinated with Serdoa getting trigger happy with Loki, and Lanun being unable to field an army on time.

Wonders

Since everyone was distracted by the fighting decided to pick up some useful wonders. Military Strategy was quite a tech detour, but worth it. Form of the Titan is a very good wonder, and Malakim in particular should never be allowed to have it - it's too easy for them to get to 10/10xp for Lightbringer -> Mage upgrade with it. Anyway, the Titan allowed me to run Military State in place of Apprenticeship and still get +2 XP, while early Heroic Epic allowed me to go mostly infrastructure in my core with one city focused on military. It started off doing 1 priest/turn (80h) then moved close to 1 ratha/turn later (120h.) So the indirect economic impact of both of these was very good.

I had another stroke of luck getting a golden age from an event (saving me burning the Military Strategy Great Commander.) I then built the Menagerie, followed by Great Library. This was probably a mistake, racing Ilios to it was fun but I should have taken Bone Palace instead. Elven golden ages are very good since forest cottages get double-bonused, and I was able to beat the aristofarms while in a golden age - another back to back golden age might have been able to take Infernal Grimoire before Ilios. The great library, in the meantime, takes too long to pay off since you run few specialists until later.

I could have asked for Sciz's marble in trade in return for some other resources + a short term NAP, which would have gotten me the bone palace.

Quests

I sent a hunter on an epic journey to the end of the world after a treasure chest on an inaccessible island. That was fun even though the results had esentially no impact on the game. Also figured out a way to make Barnaxus disappear forever by picking the pieces up with a spider lol Sorry about that one Sciz. This spider went on to be useful in the Ilios war later.

Midgame

Darrell forced the pace by going all military for a while and attacking and absorbing Serdoa, I pretty much had to attack someone to keep up in land and the only valid target was Sciz. I actually offered Mist cities from this, but he declined because his economy was in too much of a mess. PoL/Ritualists vs Warriors/Wood Golems turned out to be just as one sided as Vampires vs Warriors/Axes.

Anyway after some long negotiations Darrell and I worked out a secret pact to attack Ilios, who was still playing a very strong economic game. (He wanted it kept secret from the lurkers. Blame him.) I had to get an agreement on an overall division of the world at this point and what would happen in the endgame, because Calabim had a lead on city count after the Serdoa war. I believed the deal to be a fair one. We did not try to mess each other around over loopholes in the agreement, which I appreciated.

Unfortunately Mist decided to suicide against vampires at this point, and Blight slowed down the start of the war by 3 turns because I had to put up health bulidings all over the place which slowed the effective time I had to switch to Empyrean. I managed to prevent any cities starving by doing some quick trades for the health resources I was missing. I didn't mind giving Amelia a good deal on the pigs for it (besides, the Incense I was getting from her for wheat would go up in value when I added Empyrean temples to the Leaves ones I had up.)

I needed Rathas because Ilios' troops were stronger than mine in straight up fighting, so I had to seize the mobility advantage. I'd have produced a lot of Ratha even if there was no war at this time. I will echo Darrell that this war was fun from our side because of the good teamwork. Probably somewhat less fun for Ilios since although Blinding Light didn't come into play much, I never left him a good counterattack against my priests and he got stuck on one city for quite a while. I had to play very cautiously because I wouldn't be able to replace PoL or Ritualists during the war.

Darrell wasn't quite as cautious. A couple of pillaging ratha were killed because he didn't cover them, which resulted in Ilios being able to build a couple of chariots, which then razed a new city he'd put up on the border lol Unfortunately for him the lack of paranoia caused serious trouble later.

While the siege was happening I ran a second golden age, built more wonders and got Courthouses everywhere, since spamming units in all cities at this point wouldn't have won the war any faster. During this siege I had to pull a significant amount units off to keep Hyborem in line though, which was annoying. At the end of this golden age I had a significant economic lead because I never went 100% military.

Endgame

Amelia managed to amass a very impressive HA count for a comparatively low number of cities and set a nice trap. With better magic support she would have actually won against the Vampires. Much respect for this.

Now the fact that Calabim can draft summoners and feast them up to Commando levels is a bit silly, it'd have been interesting putting that up against the fortress I was building. As for my army composition, by t200 I'd have Druids, Archmages, Beastmasters, Mages backed by all 4 sub-towers and 9+ nodes, Mithril Champions/Ratha, Rangers, Assassins, assorted priests. By the way, 200 vampires and half of them commando was my best estimate too. Wouldn't it have sucked if one of us researched Mithril Working and didn't have Mithril? tongue Anyway it'd have been an epic fight which would have showcased a bunch of high end units. I won't reveal my battle plans in case we decide to play that out. I think it could have gone either way.

Anyway, you guys were a pleasure to play with. I actually quite enjoyed watching my civilization grow at the slow PBEM pace. Since there was always something happening whether it be cottage growth, terraforming, wonders, or cultural expansion. Elves are nice for that.
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Ah, post game etc...

[Size="5"]What went right:[/Size]

[Size="4"]Early game:[/Size]

I really pushed rapid expansion, and had my microplan set to around T70. I had planned to have at least four cities before the Adaptive switched. We were all packed together, so I didn't really discuss my preferred sites with the Luchuirp, as all my cities west of the capital were first ring cities. It was unfortunatethat all my best locations were between me and Sciz. Possession is nine tenth of the law... But I suppose I didn't make my neighbour happy...

[Size="4"]Early meddling:[/Size]

With hindsight, I still think supplying Sciz with my Copper was the right move. It locked two rivals in a prolonged struggle, setting them back in relation to the remaining players.

That said, if Mist hadn't proposed Sciz to attack me together with him, I would probably not have intervened.

[Size="4"]Killing Loki:[/Size]

Very satisfying. smile

[Size="4"]Early dogpile:[/Size]

Massing my units on a hill around Helios proved to be the right move. It blocked the way to my interior, forcing the Balabim stacks to move on flat ground.
Ofcourse, they never did, which was strange because it could have caused real trouble if my northern city got attacked, especially with the Lanun moving in afterwards.

[Size="4"]En-Kai:[/Size]

I would have loved getting the Tablets of Bambur, Bazaar of Mammon and the Crown of A in there as well. Great city...

[Size="4"]The Bone Palace:[/Size]

Prolonging the life of defeated players since T145. :hat:

[Size="5"]What went wrong:[/Size]

[Size="4"]Diplo:[/Size]

I really underestimated how freaked out people were with my (modest) lead. As I mentioned in my thread, it would seem that every player in this game had plans to invade/kill/destroy me. And with Darrell and Uberfish fanning the flames, it was only a matter of time.

I really got outschemed here. crazyeye

[Size="4"]Balseraphs:[/Size]

I'm really sorry I couldn't get a good working relationship with Serdoa. I know he's short on time, but what a game changer this would have been if we had managed to work closely together.

As I mentioned to him in the early days of the game, it made no sense for us to fight. The horrible peaks between our lands basically forced armies into a bottleneck (see Hot Gates).

I've noticed that the first contact in the game is usually either your buddy for the rest of the game (eG Warriorknight and me in PB3), or your first target.

[Size="4"]Darrell:[/Size]

I wish I had met the Calabim earlier in the game.

[Size="4"]Uberfish:[/Size]

He really had me going there, and I was thinking we were working nicely together. Nicely played!

[Size="4"]Nap's:[/Size]

They suck. Like Vampires.

[Size="4"]Preparing for war:[/Size]

I really should have build more troops, earlier, Calabim bordering me et al.

[Size="5"]Conclusion:[/Size]

I think my overall mistake was playing this game as a sort of Single Player game plus. I just wanted to be left alone and tech to Tier 4 units and kill everyone. lol

Thanks for the great game, guys!
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Selrahc Wrote:I don't really accept the premise that Festivals is such a necessity. Education cottages could get you the cash to upgrade units, as well as helping out your tech rate. As well as pushing you closer to techs like warfare and code of laws.
It doesn't survive the maths. Let's be generous, I get Education on turn 35. That leaves me 25 turns to stockpile 200 gold. But I also need to research Mining and BW which makes 540 breakers. So 750 commerce altogether over 25 turns for 30 commerce per turn averaged. And that's disregarding upkeep ( cities, units, civics... ). Just not possible this early on a nonfinancial civ.
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re: Doviello vs Luchuirp

1) Mist city placement - Could have been improved. If the capital went 1NE on the horse (where I put Vale of Shadow later) it'd gain 2 floodplains and a wheat and keep both silk. The 2 Dye site should also definitely have been settled earlier, given that Doviello had BW to clear the jungle, and Calendar.

2) Lack of early contact between the two civs obviously caused trouble - I told Sciz what direction Mist was in and he never made contact. If he had established communications there'd have been time to work out a mercenary contract acceptable to both sides imo.

3) That said I thought the deal Mist offered Sciz at t60 was a fair one - because Ilios' land was much better than what Sciz had. I can understand being upset at being issued an ultimatum, though.
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The thing with the Doviello rush was that I thought I could negotiate it down. I offered you a bit less gold per city, which wouldn't really change your gain a lot, since you gain much more from city conquest than from my tribute. But you just flat out attacked. I thought there was some leeway and apparently there wasn't.
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Also not contacting Mist was a big mistake obviously
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