RB Pitboss #1 Spoilers - Joai of the Incans - Krill/Memphus

[Krill]

Technically speaking, the after war NAP with the Lins stated that (I) wouldn't settle south of LL. I did envisage setling the the east.

Hope you are having fun.

[Exploit]

The city I am proposing is southeast of LL sort of the midway point between Sunrise, Lin and I, so my interpretation of the agreement as written was that the area was in the dmz. I like to get my allies to agree to these things if there is even a hint of doubt so that there is no dispute later. The other city I proposed is solidly in my cultural influence so they couldn't stop me from settling there anyway. That was merely a formality to build trust in our relationship.

I am having fun. This is the best civ game of the 7 that I am currently playing. There is more wheeling and dealing in this game instead of static alliances which I find boring.

Your REX strategy worked extremely well. You left me an extraordinary position from a land, production, gold and population standpoint. I will say the military was in moderatly poor shape when I took over but that is only because Rego's army was so strong in comparison. The army was about average size for the other civs. You also left a bit of a diplomacy hurdle with your reputatation however I think Yaz did a good job overcoming most of that prior to my arrival.

I am confident that we stand a good chance to win the game however things can always change fast so only time will tell.

[Spronz]

Good you're enjoying it. I can say it's certainly a fun game to follow. Thanks for all the updates

[Krill]

Yeah, I don't think the army got much attention; I was waiting to get gunpowder and Nationalism from DSP and mh/Kodii respectively before I started drafting properly, but they backstabbed. What are you going to do :shrug:

Eh, the strategy I originally envisaged using was just winning by sheer numbers, which you seem to understand. For example, my thoughts were:

• Never bother with an academy because I knew the slider was never going to go that high.
  
• Get a shrine and spread religion to a shedload of cities (really, how many cities have toaism now? 30?)
  
• Get courthhouses everywhere and out espionage everyone (the espionage economy is a really neat side effect of a good REX IMO)
  
• Use Merc and rep to tech until democracy was available, draft down excess pop (which was the reason for Notre Dame, and the incense city), farming where needed for pop.
  
• Cottage every square inch of flatland (and probably most hills tbh) once emancipation was in
  
• Revolt to US and FS, and buy whatever was needed, probably going Theocracy and SP as well so newly conquered cities can either be cottage cities, or just have farms/workshops to get straight into production

So far it seems that you have everything going brilliantly, just need to stay on top of it. And it's great to see that you are enjoying the game, I'm much happier knowing that it's not a bad position that just drags to have to play. Yeah, things can change, but at least you think you are in control, so good luck keeping the control.

[Exploit]

Chat with Rego:

me: are you available to chat?
regoarrarr: i was trying to go ingame
but yeah
i'm around
me: given any thought to my proposal?
regoarrarr: man this is confusing
i was just talking to krill krill
on this same account
at least i THINK it was krill
me: hmm. sorry about that I didn't realize he was still logging into this account.
this is Exploit
regoarrarr: right
Sent at 8:50 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: so what are you going to do with your army if we sign a NAP?
Sent at 8:51 PM on Monday
me: My army isn't costing me so much that I necessarily have to do anything with it.
What is your specific concern?
Sent at 8:55 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: i don't know
here are a few thoughts i've had
i wouldn't want you using your head start on getting steam power to say, start researching a tech that it unlocks
that's more of a concern to me then you getting 10t of faster workers
though honestly i'd be more interested in talking about future tech / other cooperation
Sent at 8:58 PM on Monday
me: I do not like static alliances so at some point in the game I will be looking to shake up the alliance structure.but not right away.
regoarrarr: yeah to me, coming from a Diploamcy backgroudn where the alliances tend to be more fluid, the static alliances in this game have been frustrating
i think part of that is due to the ful ltech trading being on
me: I play the game like Survivor. Determine who I want to take to the next era with the eventual goal of winning myself.
regoarrarr: right
i think that's a good model
me: yes, I think we play a similar style of game as does Shady.
regoarrarr: so, did i make the cut as wanting to go in the next era with you?
me: I don't see that I have a choice since it would be too costly for me to take you out of the game at the moment.
I generally prey on the weak to maximize my growth while minimizing my losses.
I also tend to make myself self-sufficient and well defended so I am not dependent upon alliances for survival.
regoarrarr: kind of hard in a game like this
Sent at 9:04 PM on Monday
me: It's difficult but not impossible. Most people always want something from you so its a matter of being open to negotiations. At the moment you would like to be able to redeploy your troops to make better use of them. I would speculate that you intend to take out Imhotep so now it's just negotiation.
regoarrarr: well, that would seem to be the first thing that came to mind but not necessarily the best move
also, when did i propose a nap - has it been awhile? I'm not unopposed just don't remember sending it
Sent at 9:08 PM on Monday
me: well you keep talking about us working together and getting peace passed through the AP. I'm not certain if you formally mentioned a NAP but that is the gist of what I understood you to be talking about.
regoarrarr: okay
as for the AP, i actually was expecting you to defy
but you're right, i am not opposed to peace
im just a peaceful ol guy
me: lol! So am I of course.
regoarrarr: of course, of coures
so speaking of preying on the weak that you mentioned, another concern i'd have is that your nap with sunrise runs out on t190, and i would hate to send my army away from our mutual border only to find sunrise asking for me to help him hold off an incan army
Sent at 9:11 PM on Monday
me: I am currently in negotiations with Sunrise about our future. So far he has not offered me anything that would stop me from crushing him but I suspect he will come back with a significantly better offer. I am a peaceful person after all.
regoarrarr: lol
Sent at 9:14 PM on Monday
me: I am not willing to trade away my negotiating position with Sunrise as part of an agreement with you however. The price for peace with Sunrise will be substantially higher.
regoarrarr: i understand
from my perspective, my ties with sunrise run long and deep. it would be tough for me to throw those away, or agree to something that is going to be an indirect cause of him being destroyed
having said that, as you said, since both you and sunrise seem like wanting peace, i bet you can work something out
Sent at 9:17 PM on Monday
me: I think something can be worked out with Sunrise. If you want to keep your troops in your west to keep Sunrise secure that is your concern not mine. My offer is for a NAP with you.
regoarrarr: right
i understand
but a NAP with you doesn't do as much for me if i have to continue to keep my troops where they are
Sent at 9:20 PM on Monday
me: Agreed. I would therefore think that given your "long and deep ties" with Sunrise that you could explain to him the reality of his situation and the opportunity cost to you inherent in defending his border.
Sent at 9:23 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: oh i think he is aware of the realities of his situation - he's way more experience in MP than either you or I
though not in exactly these types of games, of course
Sent at 9:27 PM on Monday
me: I could put together a proposal that would cover a NAP with both Sunrise and yourself. I can even imagine a scenario that would involve tech trades amongst the three of us.
regoarrarr: i could see that
Sent at 9:29 PM on Monday
me: Hypothetically, a NAP between the three of us, with Sunrise funding both you and I. I could give both Sunrise and yourself all the tech that I research in exchange for all the tech you research. We could still gift the tech we researched ourselves to our respective alliances.
regoarrarr: hmm
i could see that fracturing the alliances
(not that that would necesarily be a bad thing)
me: you say that like it's a bad thing
lol
Sent at 9:33 PM on Monday
me: that deal would be in the best interest of all three of us. Getting us to the next era stronger than our competitors.
regoarrarr: somehow i'm talking to both exploit and krill in the same window (for me)
me: grr. that is why my window keeps closing. Can you ask Krill to please log out for me.
Sent at 9:36 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: okay i think krill is logged on to his personal account
but somehow i have that mapped to the same IM window as you
Sent at 9:37 PM on Monday
me: Someone else was logged into this account earlier but seems to be gone now.
regoarrarr: yeah i may have fixed it on mye nd
me: cool.
regoarrarr: okay so hypothetically speaking on tech
you can see what i am researching righ?
me: yes railroad 11 turns as I recall
regoarrarr: right
so woudln't you think that the techs that you might research would also be the ones that say, dsplaisted or kodii or shady might be researching?
Sent at 9:40 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: similarly i'd expect broker or whoever would be researching RR after steam power
me: DSP and you seem to be the only ones truly researching for your alliance. DSP is researching Sci Method currently. I will have Corporation done before you complete railroad.hich leades to assembly line and allows you to found Mining Inc which I think you are saving that GE for.
regoarrarr: do you already have constitution?
hadn't seen that
me: Our respective alliances would have to research the techs that we trade for themselves this deal would give only us an edge over our allies and our enemies.
regoarrarr: right
i just have a hard time seeing them accepting that
me: Constitution is complete next turn.
regoarrarr: although on the surface it of course seems good for youa nd i
ah
me: it's also good for Sunrise.
regoarrarr: right
but not so much for the other 8 folks
as for mining inc it's a possibility though mining inc is a bit nerfed on this map with no gold or silver
me: Not everyone is going to make the cut to the next era, which is how the game should be.
Sent at 9:46 PM on Monday
me: Actually that nerf is true. Yuck, that simple variation certainly messes up a lot of things. My forges arent making me as happy as they should be either.
regoarrarr: right
even sid's isn't that great - instead of 1/2 food per resource, it's only 1/4 on this huge map
i bet you only have 16 max seafood?
dunno i haven't counted all yours
me: I haven't counted all of my seafood since I wasn't planning on going for corps this game.
regoarrarr: yeah you have a pretty good empire for SP
Sent at 9:50 PM on Monday
me: Bottom line is that peace with Sunrise is going to cost in excess of 200 gpt or else I am headed for his shrines but I am willing to negotiate something (like tech or possibly religion spread) in return.
I cannot allow Sunrise to keep funding your research at ~240 gpt without something comparable in return.
Sent at 9:53 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: what do you mean by religion spread?
taoism by him?
or hinduism / judaism to you?
Sent at 9:56 PM on Monday
me: He has two religions, I could spread them to all of my cities (~30) which with markets, grocers,and wall street in his shrine cities comes to an extra 2 or 3 gpt per city. He should earn an extras 150 gpt if I spread his religions to all of my cities.
regoarrarr: so the thought would be that you do that in exchange for a portion / all of the gold produced?
Sent at 9:59 PM on Monday
me: Yes so he pays say 200 gpt but I spread his religions to my cities as fast as possible which would mean he would earn 150 gpt back meaning the net cost to him would only be 50 gpt
regoarrarr: gotcha
Sent at 10:01 PM on Monday
regoarrarr: okay so this has been a very intriguing conversation but i need to get to bed
talk more tomorrow?
me: ok. good night.

[Exploit]

Anyone want to bet that the above chat log gets sent around to all my allies by Rego? Time to do some damage control.

[Exploit]

Here is an email that I sent out to my fellow alliance members so that none of them are caught by surprise if the above chat log is sent around.

Operation Sunset

I just wanted to give a general update to the entire alliance concerning discussions I have had with Lin, Broker, Sunrise and even Rego (yes I talked to the devil himself).

It is my full expectation that on Turn 191 when the NAP between Sunrise, Lin and myself that Lin and I will invade Sunrise and wipe him out. This is important because Sunrise is providing over 350 gpt to the enemy techers without which their research rate drops dramaticly. It was decided best if we could get Sunrise to convert over to our side (although extortion payments of more then half his gpt would be sufficient in my opinion as well). We will give Sunrise until Turn 181 to see the light after which we are committed to the war effort and mega-drafting will ensue in my cities.

It is most likely that Rego will heavily defend Sunrise's cities to protect his source of funding. I agreed to approach Rego to try to negotiate a NAP deal so that more of our forces could be used to attack Sunrise. I put on my slimy negotiator face and hip waders and trudged into the murky world of dealing with the devil. I hit Rego with a bunch of offers including possible tech trades and such plus did my best to find common cause with him but the truth is that I do not believe he will go for any of it. Officially we are supposed to talk again tomorrow but I think we simply need to assume that Rego will be involved in this war too and plan accordingly.

Regards,
Exploit

[Exploit]

Yeah, I don't think the army got much attention; I was waiting to get gunpowder and Nationalism from DSP and mh/Kodii respectively before I started drafting properly, but they backstabbed. What are you going to do :shrug:

Eh, the strategy I originally envisaged using was just winning by sheer numbers, which you seem to understand. For example, my thoughts were:

• Never bother with an academy because I knew the slider was never going to go that high.
  
• Get a shrine and spread religion to a shedload of cities (really, how many cities have toaism now? 30?)
  
• Get courthhouses everywhere and out espionage everyone (the espionage economy is a really neat side effect of a good REX IMO)
  
• Use Merc and rep to tech until democracy was available, draft down excess pop (which was the reason for Notre Dame, and the incense city), farming where needed for pop.
  
• Cottage every square inch of flatland (and probably most hills tbh) once emancipation was in
  
• Revolt to US and FS, and buy whatever was needed, probably going Theocracy and SP as well so newly conquered cities can either be cottage cities, or just have farms/workshops to get straight into production

So far it seems that you have everything going brilliantly, just need to stay on top of it. And it's great to see that you are enjoying the game, I'm much happier knowing that it's not a bad position that just drags to have to play. Yeah, things can change, but at least you think you are in control, so good luck keeping the control.

Our strategies are fairly similar. I would have preferred to sponsor techers but our alliance doesn't really have any strong techers so I had to take over the role. My goal is to get to Assembly Line as fast as possible to use my superior drafting abilities to the fullest.

I currently have 23 cities (we lost 3 to Rego during his surprise attack when I initially took over) with 3 more settlers enroute to settle. 4 more settlements are planned with any future growth beyond that requiring conquest. Of the existing cities 18 have Taoism. Globally there are 36 cities with Taoism. Plan is to build missionaries for our own cities plus spread to allies post the war with Sunrise. My immediate priority is to make as many troops as possible to overwhelm Sunrise and Rego.

Courthouse is the second building in every city (first is terrace) so we are on the same page there. Post war intention is to add Jails to every city as well to really get the espionage going. I have city visibility with all of Rego's cities and will have it with all of Sunrise's as well in 7-8 turns.

My tile strategy is slightly different than yours. I am cottaging every grassland, farming every plain (I don't like tiles that don't produce at least 2 food for maximum growth), workshop every tundra (4 hammers due to Caste System), mine every hill (hoping to pop some gold or gems). Exceptions are a couple of forts built to allow my navy to travel between all the various lakes and sea.

I also have 1 city with 17 forests around it and 3 tiles which are left undeveloped hoping for forest spread. These forests will become preserves and the city will have national epic and national park. Should produce 18 specialists at a minimum and 112 great person points per turn.

Given that I will be teching for my alliance I will not be going US/FS instead I will probably stick with Representation, Nationhood, Caste System, Mercantilism, and Organized Religion for the remainder of the game. A Religious civic change to either Theocracy or Free Religion is possible and if Emancipation happiness penalties get too severe I may need to reconsider my civics.

My intention is to make sufficient gold per turn through two shrines (Taoism and 1 of Sunrise's) to keep myself fully funded at 100% research with minimal outside aid.

[Krill]

Did you consider geting the Statue of Liberty? That'd be another massive plus to the tech rate, you do have copper to speed it up and you are ahead of the other alliance on that beeline. That was one of the wonders I considered pivotal if Rep was going to be used hardcore, it just gives so many extra, free beakers. It was also the reason why I thought a solid cottage cheese approach would be better; originally I had no copper, and SoL is incredibly expensive without it so I thought I'd be outbuilt by another Civ.

on the diplomacy, thank you for posting it

[Exploit]

Statue of Liberty is an excellent idea however Democracy opens up Emancipation to everyone which will really hurt my happiness since my strategy is to stay on Caste System. I may go back to it once I have Assembly Line which is my current beeline (I really want to be drafting infantry).

After consideration of the tactical situation, I've decided it's time to unleash the jugernaut horde of conscripts. Earlier then I wanted to but I do not see Rego accepting any deal that I would find acceptable so I will be facing both Sunrise and him in war.

I figure it is best to engage Rego earlier before the NAP with Sunrise wears out, that way I can divide and conquer.

I also intend to approach Imhotep and see if he is willing to become my vassal in exchange for 20 rifles and an ongoing supply of conscripts. It would allow Imhotep his revenge against Rego and be a more fun game for him. For me it opens up another front against Rego forcing him to divide his forces, reduces my troop costs, helps me towards a domination victory, secures my western border, extends my visibility on my western front and increases my happiness. Downside is, it increases my city maintenance costs and make me a bigger target.