RBPitboss #2 Athlete4life10 & Kalin

[athlete4life10]

Some correspondence last night (for us anyways maybe this morning for Jowy ):

E-mail to Jowy:

Hi Jowy,

We wanted to consult with you before signing a NAP with India. We've
been waiting now for a day, and would like to give them an answer
tomorrow. What's the deal with your NAP? Are you comfortable with us
signing a NAP with them? If they declare you war, we'd give you our
troops for sure. We expect our troops to be in your territory around
turn 91.

Please let us know your opinion as soon as you can. We'd like to hear
from you before accepting the NAP.


Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

Greece's Response:

Hey, I managed to negotiate a NAP with them yesterday. Sending a CoW message next about that But thanks for waiting before signing.


~ Jowy

As such I sent a response to India this morning:

Dear Killer Angels,

We reject your offer to renew the NAP and thereby declare you war...
just kidding Thanks for the reminder. Your points are good, so
let's renew our NAP starting turn 80 for 20 turns until turn 100.

Athlete for Team A/K of the Ottomans

[athlete4life10]

An e-mail was sent to the Galactic Empire:

Dear Emperor Whosit

Regarding our alliance, I realized that maybe we should just start and
formalize our "de facto" alliance How about we declare that we are
formally allied. This alliance will include to start:

* A defensive pact.

* A future offensive pact against Inca, details to be discussed later
depending on how things evolve.

* A NAP just joking... However, it is understood that allies don't
attack each other right?

All other issues we'll discuss on a case by case basis and will trust
each other to negotiate in good faith like between allies. For
example, we should help each other in wars with whatever we can.

I would suggest we keep our alliance secret for now.

We would like you to consider including Jowy in our alliance at some
point depending on how things evolve. We will already collaborate in
the CoW and he has good potential as a civilization. With 3 members it
will be easier to coordinate research, and if things go well we'll
end up in the worst case with a 3 vs. 2.

Please let us know if you have any other suggestions to be included in
the official alliance "document".

To a long and beautiful friendship and alliance,

Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

Now who would ever have thought The Rebel Alliance and The Galactic Empire would be allies?

[athlete4life10]

Prior to that last e-mail I posted to Rome we had already sent this. Just did it in the wrong order (sorry lurkers ):

E-mail to the Empire:

Dear Whosit,

Thanks for being so responsive with the CoW, and also thanks for your
enthusiasm We are equally excited about the whole thing.

Here are some answers to the specific issues from your previous email.
We left out for now the alliance issue, but that is because we want to
send you a separate proposal soon.

> Clauses that include mutual support would be nice--it would make sense that
> at least some level of support would be required in time of war, with
> additional help to be negotiated. That way, there would be little risk of
> one party "standing the other up," so to speak. Obligatory assistance should
> probably be something relatively non-intrusive, like resource or cash
> grants. Something more serious like "loaning" troops, or even a joint war
> declaration, would require more discussion. Just a thought.

It's great we're on the same page. Given that until we have trade
routes and/or currency there is not a lot we can do for each other but
then again, a mutual war will also be a ways away as well.

> A research plan that attempts to minimize how often we each must pay
> first-time cost would be part of an alliance, I assume. We should begin
> discussing the details, especially considering the fact that you seem to be
> ahead of the Empire in some key areas. I will try to think of other ways to
> actively foster an alliance, although I must admit that the inability to
> trade technologies will require some more creative methods than usual.

Certainly as we become closer more detailed strategies can be shared
so as to maximize our research bonuses. You already know our tech
plans for the short term and whilst we may be ahead in some areas we
are behind in others (IW for one). However given that we have been
waging war for approximately 15 turns we are still comfortable that we
are progressing well.

> Now, as for Sailing: My detour to Iron Working has taken a toll on me, as
> well as my work on Masonry, I suppose. I am going to begin work on Writing,
> and then Sailing. I estimate about 20 turns total, but I cannot be certain.
> So maybe Sailing by Turn 95 or so. The good news is that I'll be in a
> position to build Galleys immediately. I may tech faster if many others have
> Sailing--Korea already has it, and you will finish it before me. But let's
> say Turn 95.

I am a bit curious, why did you need Masonry?

> I will have to think about your proposal to gift a city. I suppose it's
> similar to gifting a Settler, except that I would have already founded the
> city. Cash in exchange could be very useful, though we would have to discuss
> what would be a fair price, and it may require a deal to split the inner
> isle ahead of time. If I could find a way to gift you a Galley, that might
> be a better option, although I suppose that would still require you to
> control at least one tile of water on the inner coast.

In order to gift a settler, it would need to be in our territory which
would delay settling a lot. The idea is to found a city, then gift it
to us immediately, which is equivalent to gifting the settler. This is
ok because it's a permanent gift. We have done this several times in
RBP1. Let's start discussing what would be a fair price for such a
city.

> Now, you asked about my time table for Korea. It is a bit . . . fluid, but
> unless they pull out any surprises, I hope to begin combat around Turn 85 or
> so. Unless their military increases at a greater rate than anticipated, and
> unless they acquire Copper or Iron, I believe that I will have an advantage.
> I am not so naïve to believe that I can win a fast a decisive victory, but
> right now I believe that the odds are in my favor.

I don't understand why you think you cannot win a fast decisive
victory against Korea. You have Praetorians, they don't have metal. If
I were in your shoes, I would 2-pop whip each city, then put one chop
as well, to get 6 praetorians very quickly then roll Korea with them.
You have had IW for a few turns now, no? I think your plan to take
Korea out is good. It is important however to move quickly so that you
can get back to development quickly.

We addressed India with the cow... I mean with the CoW Thanks for
being fast and forthcoming on the issue, I honestly think it will
benefit us all in the long run.

Regarding roles in CoW, I think we should all count as equals and
nobody should assume a specific role. For example, having one be
“Commander-in-Chief” could somehow imply that they are above others in
the coalition which may not be a good thing. That's just my opinion,
however, so if you'd like feel free to suggest that to the CoW.

That's it at the moment, we'll send something very soon about the alliance.

Athlete and Kalin of the Ottomans

The Empire's response:

Dear Athlete and Kalin,

I received your message. I'll wait for the second half before responding further.

Though I will answer one point: I researched Masonry because I have a source of Marble. In hindsight, it probably wasn't a very good investment at this point, but it may be useful later.

OK, I will quickly answer another point: I do not predict a quick victory over Korea simply because I do not want to become overconfident. Because they are building weaker troops, they will outnumber me 2 to 1, at least. Praetorians are strong, but not invincible, and poor luck could easily end an offensive. Also, few of my cities are really good for whipping, but I plan to do a few whips before I begin operations, mainly to get a domestic protection force ready so the rest of my soldiers are free to go on the offensive.

Best regards,

Whosit, Galactic Emperor

I sent an e-mail off while waiting on a response from Jowy re: the alliance with Rome:

Greetings Emperor Whosit,

While you wait for the response part 2 I was logged in and noticed we
missed our espionage count. We finished at 45 against you, however we
should have stopped at 43. I apologize for not paying close enough
attention to that and hope you don't mind too much . I have now
directed our espionage spending away from the Empire. Though there's
this one Bothan Spy that won't give up on those plans!


Athlete for A/K
Ottomans

And Kalin sent a note out about the same time as the alliance one:

Dear Emperor Whosit,

A small tactical issue: we noticed your warrior Thannis by our city
Kashyyyk. We suggest you move him 1NE on the road. Next go into
Kashyyyk to unfog the coast, then follow that road for speedier
movement. Please let us know if (hopefully where ) you see iron.

Thanks,
Kalin for Team A/K of the Ottomans

[athlete4life10]

We also received an e-mail from the Inca:

Hello!

Happy Holidays to you as well

I'm just letting you know that I've received your e-mail, but since I am in the process of figuring out how I can phase out and take my hiatus, I cannot give you anything concrete right now. I don't know where Iamjohn has disappeared off to, but I hope he can return and assume position as the leader of the team.

Have a Happy New Year!

- Kodii for IK(Z) (soon to be I(KZ)?)

And I've sent an initial response:

Hi Kodii,

Thanks for your response. We appreciate the position your in and any
time you can devote to civ right now is appreciated. When you next log
in you'll notice we have requested OB's. Given our peaceful
relationship and willingness to cooperate together we thought this
only natural. We hope you will accept. If you have any questions let
us know.

Athlete for A/K
Ottomans

[athlete4life10]

Kalin,

Here's a draft I've done up to ask India for OB's. Can you have a look and either send or edit/send . I didn't think there's a rush as it will be 2/3 turns before Ellorrs actually enters their land I think so I figured even though it's a simple e-mail we should agree on it.

Athlete

Good Morning Killer Angels,

We have a warrior approaching your borders through Mali territory and we were hoping to arrange safe passage through your lands so that he may unlock trade routes with your great nation. Would you be willing to sign an Open Borders agreement? It would seem to us a natural course of action to further friendly relations.

Sincerely,

Athlete for A/K
Ottomans

[kalin]

Here's a draft I've done up to ask India for OB's. Can you have a look and either send or edit/send . I didn't think there's a rush as it will be 2/3 turns before Ellorrs actually enters their land I think so I figured even though it's a simple e-mail we should agree on it.

I looks good, I would cut the last sentence however to keep it simple.
Kalin

[kalin]

*** Warning. I do not have the game in front of me with the exact #'s available. ***

Anyways I disagree with chopping the library at Coruscant b/c once it grows to size 4 it will produce 14 hammers/turn while constructing a library. Given the amount of hammers it will have from overflow and the 3 turns of constructing it will have prior to size 4 it should only take 2 maybe 3 turns tops of construction at size 4. We could then use that forest to chop a settler which I believe would be more beneficial.

@Endor, I believe we should move this worker on T79 to chop the hill 1E of Endor. I think that should go into a worker and then we could chop the library if it was deemed appropriate. At size 3 Endor will take 8 turns to start a brand new worker, however if we chop it out it will only take 5 turns. Well worth the trade off to get a worker available to go to the future Istanbul. We can than review and see if a chop should go into the library.

I still think that chops are the right thing to do, both at Coruscant and Endor. The simple intuition is: if we finish the libraries faster we can also finish faster the worker/settler. It doesn't really matter where the chops go. I think it makes sense to finish the libraries asap given that we already invested hammers in them, so we may as well get the benefits.

Coruscant doesn't have good tiles to work at size 4. I have been meaning to say this for a while and I keep forgetting: the mined plains hill is not a good tile unless not growing, that is building worker/settler. We should have mined the grass hill if we had a choice. When working the plains hill mine we would grow slowly (+4F only). As such, we should not be growing at size 4 for long, hence the need to finish the lib faster so that we can switch to settler asap. A small correction too: Coruscant has only +7H production at size 4 and +4F.

Endor also would grow slowly at size 3 working the gold, so we should try to minimize growing at +3F only.

The reason why plains hill mines are not so good is that they "convert" 2F into 4H or 1F for 2H. A grass hill needs only 1F and gives 3H for a much better conversion. That is true in particular at the beginning of the game when growth is imo the most important. That is because growth becomes production via whip. Maybe a lurker can comment here a bit (T-Hawk? ).

In summary: I think we should put 1 chop both at Coruscant and at Endor in libraries, then continue on to settler/worker. I would like to hear your arguments if you disagree with this.

Kalin

[Krill]

The reason why plains hill mines are not so good is that they "convert" 2F into 4H or 1F for 2H. A grass hill needs only 1F and gives 3H for a much better conversion. That is true in particular at the beginning of the game when growth is imo the most important. That is because growth becomes production via whip. Maybe a lurker can comment here a bit (T-Hawk? ).

Correct in essentials. Plains hills become better the larger the city is, as the more food it takes to do anything, eg draft and slave. Below size 6 it's better to slave than work the plains hill mine (depending on happiness levels), below size 11 with a granary it's better to slave than work the plains hill.

Building wonders however it's only better to slave when you think you'll lose it, you need the wonder asap and the pop doesn't matter, or you just got a massive whack of unhappiness from withdrawal of lux/espionage missions (this happens in SS endgames).

[kalin]

Correct in essentials. Plains hills become better the larger the city is, as the more food it takes to do anything, eg draft and slave. Below size 6 it's better to slave than work the plains hill mine (depending on happiness levels), below size 11 with a granary it's better to slave than work the plains hill.

Building wonders however it's only better to slave when you think you'll lose it, you need the wonder asap and the pop doesn't matter, or you just got a massive whack of unhappiness from withdrawal of lux/espionage missions (this happens in SS endgames).

Thanks for clarifying the city sizes for which it makes sense to slave over working the plains hill mine: 6 and 11without and with granary respectively. How about a grass hill mine?

Kalin

[Krill]

Well, T-Hawk says never unless you need the building/unit asap IIRC. Personally I think that rule is too simplistic, especially when it involves workers and settlers, because the payback begins the moment you build them. Who can place a value on getting a cottage up and worked 4 turns sooner? Or getting a city settled and food worked 5 turns sooner. If you can plan out 20 turns ahead you can kinda see the differences, but you do need to have the foresight to properly get a grip on where the break points are.

Every turn is a precious commodity IMO. Don't waste them.