RBPB3 - Gandhi of the Egyptians

[Krill]

India roaded and managed to kill a pike, WC and worker...luckily I was baiting them, and with a little roading, I managed to kill a mace (on defense), HA, knight and musket for the cost of a further WC. 180 hammers cost for me, 290 for cost for them...and I pillaged the city ruins on the screen above, so if they try to attack forward again, they are liable to lose 2 fast workers plus the rest of their military, as I still have a Cuir (upgraded formation WC) and knight in reserve, Cuir at about 8 strength plus assorted other goodies. Enough to waste an awful lot of hammers for them, and losing a handful of obsolete stuff for me.

And if I really needed the units, I can swap to nationhood and draft muskets...isn't Spi fun.

[Krill]

Oh, and border pops at The Kneck in 2 more turns.

[Krill]

India just took out a pike, mace, LB, WC for a knight and 2 cats on attack, and I took out a mace on attack. So, 210 hammer cost to me, 270 hammer cost to them...390 v 560 over 2 turns...170 hammers in my favour, which is OK for me, as India is becoming less and less of a threat.

Unfortunately, I have a couple of thoughts that I can't articulate right now, simply because I don't know how to phrase it. Have you guys noticed how me and India are treating this more like a chess game, with units spread around a front, and no real stacks? This is how you position units and fight a war in territory that is not in cultural borders, where either side can road to gain a movement advantage. You have to pay close attention to hammer costs so you don't waste resources, same with promotions to maximize the value of those hammers, you need to make sure you have constant influx of new units, need to be thinking several turns ahead, and trying to figure out why this tactical battle is taking place on a strategic level. I know I'm not making much sense here though. Sorry.

It's one of the most fun parts of the game IMO, trying to balance your production for the war against production for peaceful building (and in my case, trying to figure out what my civics should be for the optimal builds). Then there is the ham-fisted approach that almost everyone follows: revolt to "war civics", build a shit load of units, throw them into one huge stack, then move them into the enemy lands and get catted and flanked to shit. The problem here is that your opponent will read the demographics, see you are building up an army, and then go into total war mode himself. Unless the attacker has a solid tech advantage, the war ends in a stalemate, and both lose out relative to the rest of the field.

However, me and sunrise are currently trading obsolete units, paying a small price to possibly get an edge over the other side that we might be able to consolidate on later for a larger advantage: eg, getting defensive units onto hills so the other player has to pay over the odds to clear the others units from them. We are also doing quite a lot of building (at least, I am, I only really have my HE city on 2 turn Cuirs, and another production city building a Cuir until it is 1 turns from completion, then it will build a stables).

[Krill]

Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.

This is an important quote to consider though. What is sunrises' strategy? Does he still have that large HA stack? I see 2 simple possibilities (there are more, but this works for the example)

If sunrise has the HA stack, he could be trying to bleed me dry, and then road the tiles 998 and 99 of the Kneck, and try to run his HA as far into my lands as possible to wreck havoc. 15 HA would be quite painful to deal with, but 1 swap into Nationhood+Theo, slaving out muskets (more long term potential than pikes) and drafting the muskets, plus my cat stack, and I should be able to handle it without losing a city.

What have I done to stop this? Well, at the end of turn my cultural borders grow at the Kneck, which gives me a view of all the tiles south of Studio 54, plus grabbing another tile, which is forested, that India would have to road to get far into my lands. I have left that forest to the SE of the Kneck around, so that he can't split The Kneck or Bad Ass with a fastmover stack. I have grown my cities and garnered enough happiness so that I can double slave them without going into unhappiness.

The other option, which is that the HA stack is not in position (it needs to be SE of Strudio 54 this turn to really work). This would be sunrise playing without a strategy and just with tactics, that wonderful sound he will make before defeat.

In short, I have designed a defensive strategy that means I should be able to win any one on one fight against India. My tactics would just speed this victory, as I believe Sun Tzu would say.

[spacemanmf]

I was wondering what the benefit of the two of you "wasting" hammers compared to the other 12 teams was.

[Krill]

Units are only useful for holding land/cities, defending workers etc. They cost an upfront price in hammers, and thereafter require gold support (I'm paying like 30 gpt in support costs).

We are now in the age of Muskets and Cuirs; in 8 turns we should have Rifling and be building Cav/Rifles. Why do I want to be paying support costs for maces, and WC? I mean, 5 turns ago I had a stack of Formation WC to deal with knights, costing me gold that could be supporting another city. I don't mind using them in a little piss about war to generate GGs, I just got one last turn, and to cost the #1 MFG/crop yield civ more than myself. Especially when he is losing the best tech units he can build in knights and maces.

[spacemanmf]

How much are you relying on HR for happiness?

What about upgrades? Are you getting decent promotions, or is it still not cost effective?

[Krill]

HR, meh, don't really need it with a ceiling around 10 for health without fresh water...of which there isn't much in my land, and I'm trading for every available resource. No Deer, Banana (3 gems on the entire map at the centre, no spices near me, Cow I ought to settle for but is in an atrocious position...resources just generally suck here). But Rep helps teching and I'm not a teching civ. I'm using FM for more trade routes, so no Merc synergy. PS is ages away and I have a grand total of 10 cottages in my empire, woo, so US is useless. I got the junk start...

Upgrades a a very bad use of gold in this game, because, well, 5 WC>Cuir upgrades is about 5 extra turns to get to Rifling.

[Krill]

OK, India has offered a white peace, after sending this message. I offer peace in game, we'll see what they do. So long as India gives peace, I'm not that worried about Ottomans.

Krill,

We didn't attack any of your units this turn (since we're currently pretty much just trading hammers), and we'd like to discuss the peace offer in more detail. I know it doesn't have concessions on either side, but are we doing an in-game treaty or just a cease fire? Also, what turn?

-sunrise

So, I opened negotiations with Byz a week or so ago, over this area pictures below, and I dialed them up again, convo below the pic.

(10:21:45 PM) Byz: hey, what's up?
(10:22:03 PM) Krill: Just wondering if you wanted to figure out that supposed border treaty
(10:22:32 PM) Byz: hmm alright
(10:22:55 PM) Byz: main point of contention will probably be that corn resource
(10:23:41 PM) Byz: I intend to found at least one more city to my direct north, and my ideal spots involve it
(10:23:57 PM) Krill: OK
(10:24:58 PM) Krill: So, what would you like from em, if I were to plant for that corn.
(10:26:12 PM) Byz: it depends how close you plan to the corn
(10:26:17 PM) Byz: assuming that you take it
(10:26:45 PM) Byz: it you plant so that the corn is right next to your city, then it screws up any chance for me to found a decent city in that area, regardless of whether I use the resource or not
(10:27:51 PM) Krill: Well, if I were to "buy" the corn, I'd have to require that there be no overlap on the corn tile between our two cities
(10:28:32 PM) Krill: If you look at email I sent you the other week, it has 2 city locations
(10:28:47 PM) Krill: 1 to the NE of hte corn, the other 2E
(10:29:36 PM) Byz: okay well 2E would never work for me
(10:29:49 PM) Krill: cool.
(10:29:53 PM) Byz: that wastes several riverside tiles I could use, even without a food resource
(10:31:00 PM) Krill: So, where would youlike to settle?
(10:31:02 PM) Byz: (looking at map still)
(10:31:05 PM) Krill: ok
(10:31:13 PM) Byz: should have left the game open, I have the entire world revealed
(10:31:14 PM) Byz: bah
(10:31:40 PM) Krill: brb, 1 minute, getting a yogurt to eat
(10:34:45 PM) Byz: I dislike the lack of resources, but I'd accept my founding a city on the 2nd forest grasss hill 2N of my wines, while you found perhaps 1N ,1NE of the corn (unforested plains tile)
(10:35:07 PM) Byz: in compensation for allowing you to take the corn, I'd like a couple workers
(10:36:23 PM) Byz: I do have a settler in the area, so a settling race might not be advisable
(10:36:56 PM) Byz: err not to be overly aggressive, but stating facts
(10:38:27 PM) Krill: Perhaps you do
(10:38:46 PM) Byz: if you found in my suggested location, it saves also spares a grassland forest, and taking that hill probably won't be a priority for me, so you'll have time to accumulate culture, if that's an issue
(10:45:01 PM) Krill: You going to be around tomorrow? It's getting late here, and I have to work a 12 hour shift tomorrow. I need to think about you offer. I won;t lie, I'm really not thrilled with the idea of moving the corn city up so close to another city site, so need to consider the consequences of that action
(10:45:40 PM) Byz: no problem, I'll try to remember to be on tomorrow
(10:45:45 PM) Krill: ok
(10:46:04 PM) Byz: feel free to make a counter-proposal or two; I'm not issuing any ultimatums
(10:46:35 PM) Byz: but clearly there is space for a couple cities in that area yet only a decent (or any) food resource for one
(10:48:29 PM) Byz: I want a city there, but am willing to give up the food; in return though, my aim is to make my city as viable as possible without the resource, and just compensation for giving up a preffered location that I can settle within 2T otherwise
(10:48:41 PM) Byz: I'm signing off for now, later!
(10:48:45 PM) Krill: cya

[Krill]

fwiw, I have a settler on the 2E site this turn, and able to settle next turn either that city (I don't really want it) or the city 1E of the corn (which I do want but is rather bitchy to Byzs' supposed cow city).

Bob doesn't fully understand the position he is in, btw. He thinks he will be able to leverage the following advantages he has over me:

• I don't want a two front war, and am trading units with India. This I'm not going to enlighten him (or anyone for that matter) until the deal is signed in game andI have 10 turns to rebuild an army...drafted rifles and built cavs and cannons, which reverses the advantage back into my favour...
  
  
  
• That he has a settler ready to found the city before I will have one on site. His mistake is not having a scouting force in the area...I do I know I can found the city before he can get there...and if I slave out the settler for the spot marked Bio. I think I can get that as well giving me a half decent defensive line.

While I don't really blame Bob trying to fight his corner, I do think he isn't doing it all that well though. There is no way I'd let him plant so close to Sto Lat to block me in so close to my capital, nor am I particularly willing to give up a good city site with my rather shit land. Nor am I building workers for him, I don't have enough for myself...and he isn't an ally.

You know what? Fuck it, I'm going to found the city 1E of the corn, 1SE would just be uber. If I get peace with India, that is. Gotta keep up that reputation for being aggressive that you guys have labelled me with When he finds out I'll just point out that he shouldn't have pissed me off all those months ago