[PB66 - Spoiler] 3rd times the charm?

[JackRB]

title says it all

probably not - some very strong players in here, and 10 others to boot - but the first step is to believe!

have zero plan as usual, want to try picking combos that are at least a little unorthodox though, whatever that might entail

July update:
sticking password here for easy access

blast

[Mjmd]

Note I may still very well change anything outside the cross.

[JackRB]

very initial reaction

2 agricultural, 1 animal husbandry, 2 good food tiles and 1 good foodhammer tile. Wheat is awkwardly placed however in terms of worker movement, well at least moving from cow<->wheat.
Not too many forests, and only two hills are forested, so BW is immediately less of a priority, although there's only so much you can deprioritise BW, and we'd want it for slavery/copper anyway.
W
Wheat looks like prime territory to be potentially? split off for a new city, in case we do have to.
Love the river, pottery top priority, cottaging dyes early on is some free commerce, and Calendar resources take a while to be hooked up. Makes Drama/Theatres more appealing, that's for sure.
Also hate the river, as it looks just awkward enough so I'm likely not going to get a free connection between first two cities, will likely require an early-ish wheel, which ties into pottery nicely anyway, so not all bad.
May be worth building settler at size 2? Will have to run some numbers here, can find it hard to grasp how the city and worker will interact growth-wise without some playing about.

The one coast tile revealed is... intriguing. Gonna be potentially fairly awkward to get a city on the coast depending on how the land shakes out due to where the capital is going to go (I see no reason not to SIP)
Where to move the scout, the riverside hill 1W of the dyes is my initial thought, just due to the wheat.

What to pick for civ, or rather what tech choices. Much more free to think about it, no seafood to worry about, not really sure at first glance, other than picking an Agri civ as an obvious (maybe too obvious) stock idea.

I also need to look through some of the CtH 3.0.0 changes!

[Krill]

Start 4 - JackRB

[JackRB]

initial reaction part 2 electric boogaloo

ok, new start and... this looks a lot more involved in terms of theorycrafting, yeesh

3 food resources, all 5 food (crab is in a lake!, took me a second to spot that), having to sink hammers into getting a 2nd food bonus up and running beyond the wheat kinda sucks though. Plains hill + wheat hammer + ivory tile makes this less sucky, but still potentially.
might mean production is a bottleneck, may want to forgo building the 2nd workboat?
ivory's a nice early happiness resource and serves as an extra hill in terms of yields, 4+1 hills, will be very useful cranking out wbs if i need to (it does give 3 hammers right?, hard to tell in the screenie)
spice tile is a bit of a lemon of a tile, although a few turns of early commerce might come in handy, not sure how much use it is though with the ivory tile there

despite the water start there's actually very little water visible right now, and really have no idea what to bank on/expect in terms land:water ratio in the immediate vicinity of my capital - could split the land on the y-axis making scouting potentially a little awkward

rivers look good capital-wise but not so great in terms of connecting-the-2nd-city-for-free-wise, maybe I can abuse the lake for that, and split off the crab/wheat? (if needed obviously, would prefer to avoid splits if possible, and its less appealing to do so again because i need worker + 2 work boats to get everything up vs. just a worker and some tech)

i hope a copper/other early metal resource is not on the only non-riverside hill

fishing/agriculture/hunting are quite cheap techs in terms of getting early resources connected, will definitely need to test around and see if tech is a potential bottleneck, there's not a whole lot of forests to chop for BW, but there's only so much you can delay BW. Pottery might be a good early priority for cottages, however I might get away with just the seafood for early commerce?
civ pick wise i could reprise the 'dont-pick-fishing-just-research-it-first', but should i?

experimenting with a mocked-up start and reading some of the cth 3.0.0 changes (still haven't done that!!) will give me something to do on Sunday

also, for future reference

Random.org has decided as follows:

1. Piccadilly + plemo        ...... of ..........
2. Amicalola
3. Gavagai
4. Tarkeel + civac
5. Mjmd
6. Superdeath
7. GeneralKillCavalry
8. Alhazard
9. Miguelito + Ginger
10. Vanrober
11. Magic Science
12. JackRB


Good luck!

not a huge fan of being very last, but maybe being able to lock in both picks at the same time could make for some wacky pick potential? maybe?

[JackRB]

Have kept being distracted by stuff aah, quite glad to be last after all hah

I wrote a post up with all that information but looks like it didn't post. Sorry about that.

Size is standard
Dimensions are 68*44
Inland oceans, 44% water
Peaks 8%
Starts are hand built

I've not seen torusland maps, so might be worth generating a few maps to see what its all about. Krill gave enough of a hint to at least check. I'm glad I did, looking like there's a lot more water than I expected, and even the natural maps are pretty chokepoint-y. Also maybe a slim-ish chance for some astro islands? Probably not, but looks like naval warfare is going to emphasised more than PB61 and PB63. Maybe some bulbing shenanigans in play, gun for astro? the question is if I can even plan well enough to execute something like that competently  Also thinking that Protective might be a good trait here, likely easy access to some nice ICTR, and I'm expecting a mad dash to the Great Lighthouse/Colossus. Fingers crossed everyone else is inland, otherwise its not looking good.

Tight and narrow enough that I'm not sure Imperialistic is the pick, and Financial is just blah to play still, despite being good in a vacuum.


Map dump:

Map 1 generation:






Map 2:




Map 3 generation:

This is only the changelog compared to version 2.0. All differences between versions are in yellow. This is only a proposal right now, which I want to discuss with you.

Proposal version 3.x V5

Tile Yields and Improvements

• Lumbermills: Available at Metal Casting, +1 commerce with Machinery, +1 commerce with Electricity, Lumber mills get their +1 commerce bonus next to a river on all river tiles, not only on straight river tiles, reduce buildtime to 5 from 8
  
  
• Forest preserves: +1 commerce, now +1 commerce on the corner of rivers like above
  
  
• Jungle no longer grows onto resources
  
  
• Workshops base hammer output increases by +1 hammer, removed the +1 hammer from chemistry
  
  
• Forts build time reduced to 5. They also work as canals in open border and neutral territory.
  
  

Game Mechanics

• Drafting: Rifles now cost 2 pop to draft.
  
  
• AP Resolutions: Declare War (on a non-member), Force Peace (between two members), Religious victory, and Assign City are no longer eligible resolution actions.
  
  
• Fail-gold: You never get fail-gold if you also completed the wonder somewhere else (so no National Wonder fail-gold, or doubling up on a wonder to guarantee yourself a paycheck. The game still informs you that you received "0 gold" from your hammers).
  
  
• Toroidal Maintenance: Now return city maintenance as if the map were Cylindrical.
  
  
• War Weariness: War weariness decreases faster during peace
  
  
• War Weariness: Increases only by half during an MP game
  
  
• War Weariness: Gets the same reduction during war and peace. That reduction is also increased compared to BtS.
  
  
• Religion spread: Spreading religions via missionaries to your own cities never fails
  
  
• Global warming: Removed
  
  
• Espionage: Active missions removed
  
  

Techs

• Agriculture: Cost 40 instead of 60
  
  
• Mysticism: Cost 60 instead of 50
  
  
• Fishing: Cost 50 instead of 40
  
  
• Metal Casting: Cost 300 instead of  450
  
  
• Alphabet: Cost 250 instead of 300
  
  
• Refrigeration: lose +1 sea movement
  
  

Buildings

• Aqueduct: Reduce cost to 80
  
  
• Castle: Obsoletes at Corporation instead of Economics
  
  
• Customs House: Cost 120 instead of 180, also applies to all UBs based on Customs House (Feitoria)
  
  
• Colosseum: -25% war weariness
  
  

National Wonders

• Red Cross: Cost 200 instead of 600
  
  
• West Point: Cost 550 instead of 800, +5 XP instead of 4, Requires a level 5 unit instead of 6
  
  

Wonders

• Resource modifiers: All wonders that had +100% production with a specific resource now only have +50% production with that resource.
  
  
• Great Lighthouse: +1 trade route in coastal cities instead of +2
  
  
• Statue of Zeus: Obsolete at Gunpowder
  
  
• Mausoleum of Mausolos: Obsolete at Nationalism
  
  
• Reducing the cost of specific wonders to the following values:
  Chichen Itza: 400
  Angkor Wat: 400
  Hagia Sophia: 400
  Versailles: 600
  
  

Unit mechanics

• Flanking: Flanking strength (used to calculate damage from flanking strikes) of all units reduced by 50%.
  
  
• Circumnavigation: Unlocked by Optics, +1 trade route in all coastal cities harbor gives +50% extra in trade income bringing it up to +100% extra trade yield instead of +1 movement and can be achieved by everybody (due to the way the code works this is aquired the turn after Optics is researched)
  
  
• Coastal blockade: only blocks sea trade routes and resources provided by sea trade, blockaded cities can still work blocked tiles.
  
  
• Barbs now never attack your unit stack if the stack includes a settler and a unit that is giving military happiness
  
  
• Barbs never raze a city even autoraze. On recapturing such a city you too do not autoraze it.
  
  

Land units

• Scout: +100% vs Animals gained with Hunting, no tech required, that way everybody starts with a scout
  
  
• Swordsman: +25% city attack instead of +10%, also applies to UUs Jaguar Warrior and Gallic Swordsman
  
  
• War elephant: Strength 7 instead of 8, requires Ivory or Iron, applies to all UU
  
  
• Explorer: Gains Flanking
  
  
• Airship: Cannot see submarines
  
  
• ICBM: Cost 1500 instead of 500
  
  
• Tactical Nuke: Cost 750 instead of 250, blast radius reduced to impact tile itself
  
  
• Nukes: Nukes never create fallout on tiles containing strategic resources.
  
  
• Paratroopers can attack tiles without combat units after the drop
  
  
• Air units can bombard road networks
  
  

Naval units

• Work Boat: no longer require any tech (still require Fishing to work water tiles).
  
  
• Galleon: Requires Paper and Astronomy, Dutch UU still only requires Astronomy
  
  
• Privateer: Required techs are Gunpowder and Astronomy instead of Chemistry and Astronomy, removed hidden nationality, can plunder during war time
  
  

Corporations

• Tech: Discovering the corresponding tech for a corporation earns you an executive of that corporation. To settle the HQ you still need a great person.
  
  
• Sid's Sushi Co.: Food bonus per resource 0.375 instead of 0.5 and culture bonus per resource 1.5 instead of 2, maintenance costs 3/4 of original, available at Refigriation
  
  
• Cereal Mills: available at Biology
  
  
• Mining Inc.: Hammer bonus per resource 0.75 instead of 1, maintenance costs 3/4 of original
  
  
• Creative Construction: available at Steam Power
  
  

Civics

• Serfdom: +1 commerce on Farms, +1 hammer on Watermills and Windmills, available on Monarchy instead of Feudalism
  
  
• Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +10% Hammer in all cities
  
  
• State Property: Lose +10% Hammer in all cities
  
  
• Emancipation: lose unhappiness bonus, gain +0.2 hammers per happy population in a city (Rounded up)
  
  
• Environmentalism: Available at Biology instead of Medicine, remove Corporation costs, +1 commerce on water tiles
  
  

Traits

• Financial: +1 commerce on land tiles that have 3+ commerce, lighthouse gives: +1 commerce on water tiles that have 2+ commerce, +100% production of bank
  
  
• Expansive: Remove Worker bonus, add +100% production of Aqueduct
  
  
• Creative: Remove production bonus for Colosseum
  
  
• Charismatic: +100% production of Monument, +100% production of Colosseum
  
  
• Aggressive: -50% unit maintenance cost, free Barrage I for all siege weapons
  
  
• Philosophical: +150% GPP instead of +100%, +100% production of monasteries
  
  
• Protective: +100% domestic trade route yield (works like a harbor mechanically, just only for domestic trade), +50% production of market
  
  
• Industrious: +100% production of national wonders
  
  

Civs

• UBs no longer obsolete at any time. Affected civs are Celts, Egypt, Ethiopia, Native America, Spain
  
  
• America UB: NEW Immigration Station - Harbor replacement, +3 Great People Points, +1 happy from Hit Musical, Singles and Movies
  
  
• America UU: NEW Minuteman - Musket replacement, Starts with Guerrilla 1 and Woodsman 1.
  
  
• Arabia UU: Camel Archer starts with March
  
  
• Babylon UB: +5% food storaged on growth
  
  
• Celts UB: +1 culture
  
  
• China UU: max 40% collateral damage instead of max 60%
  
  
• Germany UB: Assembly Plant available at Steam Power instead of Assembly line, +2 hammer
  
  
• Germany UU: NEW Riesengarde - replace Grenadier, available at Chemistry, starts with Pinch
  
  
• Greece UU: Phalanx - replaces spearman, strength 5, +25% hill defense
  
  
• Inca UB: Makes city act as a source of fresh water instead of +2 culture, Cost 45
  
  
• India UU: movement 2 instead of 3, start with Mobility promotion
  
  
• Japan UB: NEW Tatara, Forge replacement - +2 XP to Melee, +10% hammer bonus with coals
  
  
• Maya UU: Starts with Woodsman 1
  
  
• Native America Tech: Fishing/Hunting instead of Fishing/Agriculture
  
  
• Native America UB: Available at Archery instead of Mysticism, additional +1 XP for gunpowder units, never obsoletes
  
  
• Persia UB: NEW Bazaar - replaces market gives 25% trade yield
  
  
• Russia UB: Replace University instead of Laboratory, only +1 free scientist
  
  
• Spain UB: Never obsoletes, +2 XP for naval units, does not require Walls
  
  
• Zulu UU: Remove Mobility promotion
  

Intruiged by the workshop buff, America and Germany civ changes.

[JackRB]

Stream of conciousness start testing:

Have to go fishing if I want WB start first, and I'm pretty sure I do.
WB (ivory) -> WB (grow to size 2 fish first, build finishes on size 3 growth) -> worker -> settler gets done on turn 28, can always squeeze a warrior before but will delay by a few turns
Worker improves the wheat

Initial thought of starting Fishing/Agriculture, but maybe Fishing/Mining is better in a vacuum? not too wedded to either one, need to check what civs actually have what as I can never remember starting techs...
Fishing/Mining is slightly more flexible, allows me to pick up BW, Agriculture before worker pops out, and Wheel just as soon as the Worker finishes. Starting with Agriculture costs me an extra turn. The ivory tile can probably avoid being camped in the very short term, its functionally just a mine tile.

Fishing civs:

Fishing/Agriculture: America, Dutch,
Fishing/Mining: Carthage, England, Portugal, Rome,
---
Fishing/Hunting: Greece, Viking, Native America,
Fishing/Wheel: Japan (wow japan sucks)
Fishing/Myst: Spain

Currently the picks look like this:
1. Piccadilly + plemo - ??? of Rome
2. Amicalola - ??? of Khmer
3. Gavagai - Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of ???
4. Tarkeel + civac - Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of ???
5. Mjmd - ??? of Zulu
6. Superdeath - ??? of Vikings
7. GeneralKillCavalry - ??? of America
8. Alhazard - Napoleon of ???
9. Miguelito + Ginger - Asoka of ???
10. Vanrober - Zara Yaqob (ORG/CRE) of ??? 
11. Magic Science - ??? of ??? UP
12. JackRB - ??? of ??? ON DECK


so realistically
Fishing/Agriculture: Dutch only
Fishing/Mining: Carthage, England, Portugal

Worked out something that feels like a safe, initial option that I'm fairly comfortable as a baseline.
However, could try chopping stuff out with a Fishing/Mining start? Going worker first doesn't really work still as I expected, and while I could chop the forest 1E of the spices, it only saves 1 turn (even if I slot a warrior for escort duty inbetween worker and settler) Still might be worth doing however.

Struggling to think of anything better than going WB->WB->Worker->Warrior->Settler, while tech (starting with Fishing/Mining) goes BW->Agriculture->Wheel (ordering is irrelevant, I'd like to gun for early pottery too)
Worker can chop a forest and then farm Wheat/road for next city.
Might do a sanity check just before I lock picks if I have time

In terms of leader traits, I'm still up for ditching IMP, I also cannot believe I completely forgot about ORG! Well, I knew it was good, but I think I've mentally been underplaying the double production bonuses, given the amount of water in the maps I'm expecting a fair few Lighthouses being necessary, and Courthouses would also be extremely useful to have cheap given how I suffered badly from the increased Emperor costs in PB63.
(There's also the question: do I pick civ/leader individual strengths, or do I try and take this opportunity to do some kind of combo?)

ORG leaders left
Darius (FIN/ORG) - in a vacuum likely strongest, but not feelin it
Freddy (PHI/ORG) - can I use phi remotely competently? hmm
Hammy (AGG/ORG) - decent idea, if only to be left alone initially?
JC (ORG/IMP) - def not picking
Lieu-Ye (ORG/PRO) - I think PRO will be good on this map, fits the 1early/1late playbook reasonably well too
Roosy (IND/ORG) - Rush for TGL strat?

I'm sad to see Zara gone, have a sneaking suspicion CRE might be very useful.

Out of the civs left, I'm not seeing a whole lot of combo potential? Carthage or England imo. I'm leaning towards Carthage a little bit, but only because I think England is just too slow.

I'll initially, and and somewhat cautiously, plump for Lieu-Ye of Carthage.

(Also realised in my earlier notes I was commenting about inland starts getting one start confused with another, great.)

[JackRB]

Thought I had time to check over picks briefly, the fact I'm picking 20 minutes before I'm giving a presentation at an event suggests otherwise hah

[Charriu]

As long as you don't present your pick at that event, everything is fine.

[JackRB]

And the picks are done, rather speedy.

1. Piccadilly + plemo - Tokugawa of Rome
2. Amicalola - Washington (CHA/EXP) of Khmer
3. Gavagai - Suryavarman (CRE/EXP) of Aztec
4. Tarkeel + civac - Mehmed (EXP/ORG) of Spain
5. Mjmd - Julius Caesar (IMP/ORG) of Zulu
6. Superdeath - Hammurabi (AGG/ORG) of Vikings
7. GeneralKillCavalry - Kublai Khan (AGG/CRE) of America
8. Alhazard - Napoleon (CHA/ORG) of Egypt
9. Miguelito + Ginger - Asoka (ORG/SPI) of The Holy Roman Empire
10. Vanrober - Zara Yaqob (ORG/CRE) of Mongolia
11. Magic Science - Sulieman (IMP/PHI) of Greece
12. JackRB - Lieu-Ye (Org/Pro) of Carthage


Will try and analyse these a little more tommorow, some things definitely jumping out on first impressions. The total dominance of ORG, lack of FIN, and an awful lot of civs with scary UUs, Rome, Zulus, Egyptians, Mongols to name a few. Fingers crossed I get lucky and avoid IMP/CRE neighbours as much as possible.